AI companies have been ‘more proactive’ on safety concerns than social media, says Frances Haugen

SOCIAL RECKONING, A MOVIE BASED ON FRANCES HAUGEN'S 2023 MEMOIR ABOUT BLOWING THE WHISTLE ON FACEBOOK AND EXPOSING SOCIAL MEDIA'S DANGERS TO TEENS. TODAY, PARALLELS ARE BEING DRAWN TO SAFETY ISSUES AROUND AI. FACEBOOK WHISTLEBLOWER FRANCES HAUGEN JOINS US RIGHT NOW. SHE CURRENTLY WORKS AS AN ADVOCATE FOR SOCIAL MEDIA TRANSPARENCY AND ACCOUNTABILITY. AND FRANCES, THANK YOU FOR COMING IN. >> MY PLEASURE. >> TO BE HERE. WAS THAT SCENE REAL? AND I. >> WE DID NOT HAVE THAT CONFRONTATION IN PUERTO RICO, BUT WE THERE WERE MANY MOMENTS WHERE, YOU KNOW, IT WAS REALLY STRESSFUL FOR BOTH OF US. AND THE QUESTION OF, DO YOU KEEP GOING ON? LIKE, HOW HOW INVOLVED DO YOU WANT TO BE? THAT'S A QUESTION YOU HAVE TO RESOLVE OVER AND OVER AGAIN OVER THE COURSE OF BLOWING THE WHISTLE. >> YEAH. YOU HAVE SEEN THE MOVIE YOURSELF. YEAH, IT'S NOT OUT YET, BUT THERE IS ALWAYS THIS QUESTION OF GOING BACK TO THE SOCIAL NETWORK WITH AARON SORKIN. LOOK, HE'S LOOKING AT TRYING TO MAKE THIS A REALLY ENTERTAINING PLATFORM. HOW MUCH OF IT IS REAL? HOW MUCH OF IT DID YOU FEEL LIKE REALLY FOLLOWED THE ACTUAL STORY? >> I FELT IT REALLY CAPTURED THE SPIRIT OF LIKE THE PROCESS. SO I, WHEN I HAD THE PLEASURE OF GETTING TO SEE IT A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, THERE WERE THINGS IN IT WHERE I KNOW I WROTE ABOUT THOSE THINGS IN MY MEMOIR, BUT I DON'T I DON'T RUMINATE ON THE PAST. RIGHT. AND, AND I, IT WAS REALLY MAGICAL GETTING TO SEE THESE LITTLE MOMENTS WHERE, LIKE, I CAME IN KNOWING SOME THINGS FOR SURE. AND THERE WERE OTHER THINGS THAT WE KNEW WERE KNOWN UNKNOWNS AND WATCHING, YOU KNOW, THE JEFF CHARACTER AND THE FRANCIS CHARACTER FIGURE OUT HOW TO CONNECT THOSE PIECES TOGETHER. IT BROUGHT BACK REALLY WARM MEMORIES FOR ME. SO I FELT IT CAPTURED THE SPIRIT OF THAT, THAT THAT TIME PERIOD. >> FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW THE STORY AS WELL, I MEAN, YOU CAME OUT AS A WHISTLEBLOWER AND SAID, FACEBOOK KNOWS ITS ALGORITHM IS DOING THINGS THAT ARE HURTING TEENAGERS. WHAT WHAT GOT YOU TO THE POINT WHERE YOU SAID, I HAVE TO TELL PEOPLE ABOUT THIS? >> SO THE CORE OF MY DISCLOSURES WAS AROUND A SET OF PUBLIC STATEMENTS THAT FACEBOOK MADE OVER AND OVER AGAIN, WHICH IS THEY SAID THE WAY WE WILL BE SAFE IS THROUGH CONTENT MODERATION. YOU KNOW, WE HAVE THESE AMAZING EYES. THE EYES WILL PICK OUT ALL THE DANGEROUS THINGS AND LEAVE US WITH A SAFE EXPERIENCE FOR KIDS, FOR THE FOR THE MOST VULNERABLE IN OUR SOCIETY. IN REALITY, FACEBOOK IS THE INTERNET FOR MANY PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD. IT'S NOT JUST THIS DISTRACTION THAT WE HAVE IN THE UNITED STATES OR MAYBE IN WESTERN EUROPE. AND WHEN FACEBOOK WAS INVESTING IN THOSE SAFETY SYSTEMS, THEY OVERWHELMINGLY INVESTED DISPROPORTIONATELY IN ENGLISH. SO 11% OF USERS SPOKE ENGLISH. OVER HALF THE SAFETY BUDGET WASN'T ENGLISH. WHAT PUSHED ME OVER THE EDGE WAS WATCHING THE TEAM THAT WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR TRYING TO KEEP FACEBOOK A SAFE THING FOR THE WORLD BEING DISSOLVED AFTER THE 2020 ELECTIONS. AND WHEN THAT HAPPENED, I KNEW THAT THE ONLY WAY FACEBOOK WAS GOING TO BE ABLE TO COURSE CORRECT WAS IF IT GOT HELP FROM THE OUTSIDE. >> AND YOUR CONCERNS THAT YOU SAW, WHAT DID YOU THINK WERE THE BIGGEST HARMS, THE BIGGEST ISSUES THAT WERE HAPPENING AND BEING IGNORED? >> SO I WORKED ON A DAY TO DAY BASIS WITHIN THREAT INTELLIGENCE WITHIN, WITHIN FACEBOOK. SO THAT'S STUDYING HOW GOVERNMENTS ARE WEAPONIZING THE FACEBOOK PLATFORM. SO THEY WERE COMPROMISING SENIOR BUSINESS LEADERS. THEY WERE COMPROMISING GOVERNMENTAL LEADERS PHONES BY SENDING THINGS LIKE MALWARE OVER THINGS LIKE WHATSAPP. THIS HAPPENED TO JEFF BEZOS, RIGHT? THAT'S ONE OF THE MAJOR KIND OF TOUCHPOINTS THAT PEOPLE USUALLY HAVE HEARD OF. AND WATCHING NATION STATE ACTORS WEAPONIZE THESE PLATFORMS MADE ME REALIZE HOW THESE ARE NOT ISSUES THAT HAPPEN SOMEPLACE ELSE OR THEY'RE NOT, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE NOT FOR LOOKING AT PICTURES OF CATS. THESE ARE THINGS THAT IMPACT OUR DAILY LIVES. AND WE HAVE TO BE ADVOCATING FOR SAFER SYSTEMS. >> SO TALKING ABOUT SAFER SYSTEMS JUST TO ADVANCE US TO TODAY. SURE. ONE OF THE BIG QUESTIONS AROUND AI, WE'VE SEEN MARK ZUCKERBERG IN THAT MEETING AND MUSE, BUT JUST EVEN SORT OF THINKING ABOUT AI SAFETY, DO YOU TRUST THE IDEA OF A GROUP OF INDUSTRY PEOPLE ACTUALLY BEING ABLE TO MONITOR THEMSELVES? THE LIABILITY, YOU KNOW, THERE'S THIS ARGUMENT THAT THERE'S LIABILITY. IF THERE'S LIABILITY, THEREFORE THEY'RE GOING TO DO THE RIGHT THING. THEY DON'T NEED A REGULATOR. YEAH. WHERE DO YOU LAND THERE GIVEN YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ALL OF THIS? >> SO ONE OF THE ADVANTAGES OF WHERE WE STAND WITH AI VERSUS WHERE WE STAND WITH SOCIAL MEDIA IS SECTION 230 DOES NOT APPLY TO AI IN THE SAME WAY THAT IT APPLIES TO SOCIAL MEDIA. SO I THINK THE AI COMPANIES HAVE BEEN MORE PROACTIVE IN TRYING TO LOOK AT SAFETY CONCERNS. IF YOU LOOK AT THE THINGS THAT I ASKED FOR FIVE YEARS AGO. SO THIS IS THINGS LIKE HAVING EMBEDDED OBSERVERS INSIDE THESE COMPANIES WHO HAVE FULL ACCESS TO DATA, JUST AS ANY EMPLOYEE WOULD. THAT'S WHAT THE AI COMPANIES ARE ASKING FOR TODAY. I THINK THERE IS AN AWARENESS TODAY THAT IF YOU DON'T HAVE MANDATORY TRANSPARENCY AND THAT TRANSPARENCY CAN BE POTENTIALLY ENFORCED VIA THE INDUSTRY, RIGHT? IF YOU DO HAVE INGREDIENTS. >> SO WHEN YOU READ THAT ONE PAGER WITH ALL OF THE SIGNATURES, WITH THE SORT OF FOUR LAYERS OF OVERSIGHT, IF YOU WILL, DO YOU SAY, OKAY, THAT. >> SO THERE'S A HUGE. THAT'S GREAT. THE BIG THING I'VE LEARNED IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS IS THERE'S A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HOW WE WRITE LAWS OR AGREEMENTS AND HOW WE EXECUTE THEM. SO THE REAL QUESTION IS, WHEN THE RUBBER HITS THE ROAD, WILL THE COMPANIES THAT SIGNED ACTUALLY STEP UP AND COMPLY? AND WILL WE SEE PEOPLE COMPLYING IN THE SPIRIT OF OF THE LAW OR IN THE LETTER OF THE LAW? AND HOPEFULLY WE DON'T SEE A REPETITION OF. >> IT'S NOT A LAW AT THIS POINT. YES, THIS IS THE TECH INDUSTRY AGREEING TO MONITOR ITSELF. >> I MEAN, MORE OF THE LETTER OF THE RULES OR THE SPIRIT OF THE RULES, BECAUSE THE, THE THE HISTORY OF TECH COMPANIES ENGAGING WITH REGULATION IS OFTEN THEY WILL FOLLOW THE EXACT WRITTEN STATEMENT. WHEN WE ARE DEALING WITH