Squawk Pod: Rising oil tensions, AI agent oversharing – 10/12/26 | Audio Only

Bring in show music, please. >> Hi, I'm CNBC producer Katie Kramer. Today on Squawk Pod, oil prices ticking up after a deadly Saudi airport attack. Our Dan Murphy in the Middle East. >> The investability of Saudi Arabia really being challenged right now. >> And Ukraine says Russia continues to attack its energy facilities in spite of President Trump saying there's a ceasefire. Brian Sullivan on the details. Clearly Putin and Zalinski haven't made any deals. That That's obvious. Putin attacked a natural gas facility yesterday in Ukraine. That occurred. I think this is kind of trying to force them to some kind of table. >> Uh-oh. A startup CEO shared his bank account details with the entire company. Well, his artificial intelligence agent did. We'll hear from Shane Mack, XMTP Labs CEO. >> I got a message from our head of product, Saul, and he said, "Hey, I I don't think this is the right bank account." uh summary here and I was like, "Oh, oh crap." >> Plus, when it pays to be a skeptic >> on social media, I don't believe anything anymore. None of it's real. >> It is Monday, October 12th, 2026. SquawkPod begins right now. >> Stand back by in 3 2 1. Cue, please. >> Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Squawkbox right here on CNBC. We are live from the NASDAQ market site in Times Square. I'm Becky Quick along with Joe Kernan and Andrew Rosor. And here we go, Monday morning. It is Columbus Day. The >> Middle East on edge following this weekend's attacks on the airports in Saudi Arabia's capital of Riyad. CNBC's Dan Murphy joins us now with more from Abu Dhabi. >> Andrew, good morning. Well, the kingdom actually under fire once again this morning. The Saudi le coalition saying it was dealing with drones and missiles heading towards Saudi Arabia just a few moments ago according to Reuters as hostilities with Yemen's Houthis continue. Now this follows a weekend that really shook Riyad. On Saturday, a Houthi strike on King Klet International Airport, killing at least 12 people, including an American, and injuring more than 300. It was the deadliest attack on the kingdom in a decade. Then on Sunday, the same airport being hit again and another person was killed. The Houthis are now telling airlines and travelers to stay away from Saudi airports and airspace altogether, which is putting civilian and commercial air travel, the lifeblood of these economies, in the crosshairs. It's also threatening to open up a new front in this near 8-monthlong conflict and also testing the patience of the president just weeks before the midterms. It's also testing the safety and the investability of Saudi Arabia, it's fair to say, ahead of the kingdom's flagship FI conference which is scheduled to take place later this month. Now, in terms of where we stand right now, the Saudiled coalition calling the attack a war crime and has vowed to respond decisively. So the big question being asked in the region this morning is does Washington get involved? Two Saudi officials telling MS now that the kingdom is asking for urgent defense support from the US. President Trump was asked if he would join these Saudi strikes or any new strikes in Yemen. He said we may. We're going to look at it. And that's interesting to watch. We still don't know exactly how the United States is going to respond to this. You could make the assumption that because a US citizen has been killed at the weekend, then perhaps that could potentially change the president's calculus. We're watching and waiting to see exactly what happens. Now, on your screen right now is the price of oil. This is interesting, too. Despite the escalation, oil prices have been trading sideways with a downside bias for most of the Asia and European session. In fact, I was up to watch the open this morning in Asia, and it was straight to the downside, which is uh peculiar for this type of escalation in the Middle East. But it's also explained by other news that we had at the weekend as well. On Friday, news of a deal to ease sanctions on Russian diesel. Then on Sunday, this so-called energy ceasefire between Russia and Ukraine. So, that appears to be overshadowing the escalation risk in the region right now. and perhaps helps to explain that as we come into the US open, we are seeing oil prices trading mostly sideways right now, just a little bit to the upside. As for Saudi Arabia, its energy minister also weighing in and staying defiant. The WPC conference is underway right now inside the kingdom. Of course, a number of high-profile attendees have had to pull out. But Prince Abdulaziz told that conference in Riyad this morning, "The kingdom will keep all supplies flowing under all circumstances, and in his words, no one can break our resolve." It's back over to you. >> And Dan, in terms of business as usual or not in Riad, I know there's a whole bunch of events and things that are set for later this month. What What is the true expectation of what happens um on that front? Yeah. So this is the big question right now as well. As I mentioned, the investability of Saudi Arabia really being challenged right now. We're coming into the FI conference which will take place at the end of the month. So far the messaging that we're getting from officials is that this will still go ahead. Of course, many of your viewers, Andrew, would attend that conference. Many of guests, many of the guests on this program are regular speakers at that at that conference as well. and it's really critical for Saudi Arabia. This is their moment on the world stage. So, uh, look, it's likely to go ahead, but we'll see maybe a scaledback attendance this year given the security risks in the region. And as I mentioned, a big energy conference underway right now in the kingdom. Some seauite leaders have been able to get in, obviously arriving in Saudi Arabia before these attacks took place. Whether or not they'll be able to get out is a big question. uh at the same time others deciding to pull out due to the security risk including the CEO of BP for example who uh was called out on that uh from that event on on Thursday. So look once again uh the situation in the region incredibly volatile here and markets will no doubt be reacting to this over the coming hours and days ahead. It seems as if the Yemen conflict has now merged with the Iran conflict. Something that analysts have been warning about for some time and all of this ultimately underscoring the challenge for the US position and for the US president just weeks ahead of the midterms and of course just weeks ahead of the Israeli election as well which also has the potential to kind of shift the calculus in this part of the world too. What what Dan what's the view of of Saudis uh for example or even just folks in the Middle East at this point about the US? >> It's a really good question. Um look I would contend that in Saudi Arabia in particular you know Muhammad bin Salman has been somewhat of an ally of President Donald Trump. We know they have a a close personal relationship, but beyond that, Saudi Arabia is one of America's strongest partners in the region alongside the UAE and a huge investment partner as well. So, look, we have this moment in the region right now when uh the Saudis will of course be asking for more US support. This is a country that buys the majority of US weapons. it's the largest buyer of American defense systems and and uh weapons and munitions. So, look, whether or not we will see, you know, that relationship maybe taking a hit if the US doesn't act, I think is a question. But, uh the long-term durability of this relationship staying intact despite the fact uh that this is a moment that is probably uh testing the president and testing Saudi Arabia's leadership as well. >> Okay, Dan, thank you. Appreciate it. All right, a group of four Republican and two Democratic senators calling on President Trump to reverse course on a plan announced Friday for the United States and other countries to buy diesel from Russia. The Republicans include Senators Susan Collins of Maine, Lisa Marowsky of Alaska, Tom Tillis of North Carolina, and John Curtis of Utah. They were joined by Democrats Jean Shinaheen of New Hampshire, and Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut. In a statement, the lawmaker said that the White House didn't consult with Congress or submit an explanation justifying that diesel deal. On Meet the Press, Senator Tillis said that it's likely that executing that plan would violate US law. >> And I do believe there's a legitimate case for saying the president's not following the law. We were very clear that we are that Russia is the aggressor. Russia is the one who can end this war by backing out of territory that they occupied. And Nvidia is considering buying or adding to its investment in a company called Reflection AI. Uh it produces openw weight AI models. This is a Financial Times report that Nvidia could choose to take more equity in Reflection in addition to the $800 million it's already invested. Uh provide the company with more computing power or make an aqua hire. It says here which uh that's acquiring a company as a way of hiring its talent. I think the whole idea of port montos are overused. It I think we've merged too many words like benefit. >> You are like the original Port Manuga. You like >> I think it's unnecessary here. It sounds like you're hiring Culligan. But carbage is good. >> Yeah. >> Some things are better. Some things are okay. Uh this one I I aquaire sounds like it has something to do with >> with water. Aquaman >> or Aquaman. Maybe I'm sensitive to that. A deal could add to Nvidia's growing focus on open weight AI models and bolster uh US investment in a sector that's currently dominated by China in a funding round earlier this year. Reflection was valued at $25 billion and Reflection declined to comment to CNBC. >> I mean, they need the compute power, so if you're going to give them the comput power anyway, you might as well take something on the other end. Pulling for you, my friend. I'm pulling for I hear it. I hear Froggy. >> I hear Fro. I heard it on Friday. I heard it on Friday. >> I heard it on Thursday before you left. Had it since Tuesday or Wednesday. >> Got a little frog. But the frog comes in and out. Now the frog is back right now. The frog is here. >> You're You're sick. >> Can hear it. >> I heard the snot. >> There you go. >> But for someone who um who dreads being sick so much >> dreads it now, I just think you're like in denial. And if you keep saying no, then you think maybe you won't >> maybe >> actually get sick, which could make it that much worse when it just shakes you and says you are sick and gets to the point where you just That's what when I have a >> he's going to be done with it in about two days. >> Hopefully >> that this is a seven week thing. >> Hopefully you're not like that. Hopefully you're not. Hopefully you're not like that guy in Texas who's like 30 years old and had a 16 day, you know, had to go to the hospital for the flu or something. >> Let's hope not. Let's hope. But coming up, we don't know where he was or what. >> That was such a scene watching all that on social media. I'm done with it. >> Microsoft CEO Satia Nadella calling for new controls on AI. In an ex post over the weekend, Dela saying that systems should be built with emergency brakel like features that let certain authorized people shut down models in the middle of a task. He said, "We can't treat super intelligence as a set of nested black boxes and simply accept or reject its recommendations, answers, and actions. We must build contain systems whose behavior we can observe, limits that we can test, and actions we can always contain." Other top AI voices weighing in in response to Nadella's post. Google's Deep Mind co-founder Mustafa Selman calling the task facing the industry an engineering and governance challenge and said leaders have had success policing other industries like transportation and safety uh in similar ways. Former White House AI ZAR David Sax saying as Satia points out the most trustworthy system is the one that lets us trust the model the least not the one that encourages uh the models to develop independent agency and grievances. Um, having said all of that, uh, there was a piece over the weekend that's also worth reading about what's called the verification tax, uh, which is that for all of the efficiency, uh, that we're supposed to be getting from AI, one of the things that's happening now is so many people are spending extraordinary amounts of time verifying what the AI actually did. So that for all of the sort of efficiency gains that we're cap we're supposed to be capturing on one end it may not be as real as you think because because you don't trust the model because you're not sure where the information came you're rereading it you're checking it twice you're checking it three times as a human and that's that unto itself gets back to this trust issue of do you trust it so there's a whole bunch of things about and then how do can you get an AI to effectively verify something for you can you have a separate agent checking the work of the first agent and whether you trust >> agency to have grievances. >> So these are some of the issues that I think are being compounded that are that are sort of now coming into the into the conversation. >> I like the verification tax idea. It's it's true. If you don't trust it, you're going to reach. >> And on just a a much less important level on social media, I don't believe anything anymore. I don't believe any videos. I don't believe anything. I did I just don't believe anything. >> And therefore, you're you're participating in the verification tax yourself because you're spending more time. >> I don't even try to verify it. I just assume that it's fake. I see the cutest little Did you see the cute little baby go up to the person that's pretending to be a statue and he he's got he's a gold and then he he like tries to put something in his mouth and then the little totally >> That one says it's AI on it. Well, I've seen a couple versions that don't immediately say it and it's like, "Wow, that's cute." And it's like, "Wait a second." And it and then other ones which are are maybe more interesting or compelling and things going on. None of it's real. >> But is anything real? >> The a healthy desk dose of skepticism is a really good thing to have and I think >> but it's more than that. It's the smart way to approach it. >> I don't enjoy nothing is real. Something could that could actually happen. I'd see it and it I just think >> but this goes back to at least the idea of agency meaning you Joe as we know has lots of his own agency but um what do you mean >> meaning you are a skeptic of everything so you have agency not to listen to when when you're being told a direction Joe Kernan usually's response is no that's wrong >> when the JP Morgan guy just said climate risk and I almost said are you talking about weather risk that >> okay we don't need to go there >> that's what I almost said it's like you're you're 30 years old and it's been drilled into No, no, no. We're not doing that. The point is >> he's illustrating your point. You're trying to lead him this way. He says you have the agency, buddy. And you have no Yes. The point is you have agency. The issue though is whether you think younger people, >> other types of people who may not have the sort of deep rooted cynicism that you do. >> They love groups. whether they're going to whether they're going to have the >> they sign on to anything that they read in a newspaper. >> Cheese will be next. >> Coming up on Squawk Pod, why are the oil markets shrugging off the attack in Saudi Arabia over the weekend? CNBC's Brian Sullivan joins us with the latest headlines. >> I don't know why the futures aren't up more except for the fact that this is likely a Houthy Saudi regional issue that this is tied to Iran, but this is not directly from Iran. >> We'll be right back. This is Squawk Pod from CNBC. Here's Becky Quick. >> Up and Becky Q. >> You're watching Squawkbox right here on CNBC. I'm Becky Quick along with Joe Kernin and Andrew Ross Sorcin. >> Bond markets closed for the holiday. So, I can't have worries about the 10ear today. So, we got that going for us. oil prices uh up a little bit this morning and I'm surprised they're not up more. Maybe Sullivan can explain it to us because he's here. Attacks on an airport, the Saudi Arabian capital of Riad putting the Middle East on even higher alert. It's already on high alert, you would think. Joining us now to talk about that also uh possibility of this uh this diesel fuel deal uh with Russia is our Brian Sandu. We still have lots of other sanctions on Russia for other things and now we're going to deal with them for with diesel. It's bizarre, is it? >> Yeah, it is. Of the Office of Foreign Asset Control putting out kind of a quick short statement on Friday easing some of these sanctions. We'll get to that. First thing I want to do is there is a major oil and gas conference happening right now in Riad. Got a lot of friends there, people I know that are Americans that are there from all over the world that are there. Hopefully they are all safe. I'm sure they are. Uh we were scheduled to actually be at the conference that was cancelled just out of an abundance of caution. So the conference goes underway. 12 dead, 309 killed. You asked why oil futures aren't up more. And I'm going to say two things. Number one, I don't know, which I hate saying. >> 12 dead, 309 injured. >> Yes. >> Okay. So 12 dead, 309 killed. >> 309 injured. I apologize. Yeah, it's been a long weekend. Um, >> I don't know why the futures aren't up more except for the fact that this is likely a Houthy Saudi regional issue that this is tied to Iran, but this is not directly from Iran. If the Saudi intelligence agencies are able to figure out that these attacks, which are on civilians, by the way, at the airport, are done directly by Iran, Saudi Arabia has to respond, and we'll see what happens. I would say this though, and I'm not going to say don't look at the oil futures, but I'm also going to say don't not look at the oil futures. And here's why. That price that we show on the screen is accurate for oil trading and maybe for intercountry oil trading and oil buying and selling. The reality is this. As I reported last week, guys, a ship was just chartered from Houston to China for $76 million. That's $38 a barrel for the price of oil. So add that to 90. >> Yeah. >> So I would say the actual price of a barrel of crude oil right now is probably about $125 a barrel. >> People come on and say that. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They're right. >> Yeah. >> So that number is technically correct. But I don't know anybody now in the oil market that's looking at that number. >> Right. >> And I think if we see a firm response and the Saudis will have to respond somehow. If it's against Houthies, that's one thing. If it's around Iran, that's a totally different thing. And let's be clear, there are also attacks still ongoing in the Arabian Gulf and Hormuz area on ships, >> right? And so the cost of a ship, a lot of ship owners aren't going to send their ships there. And the cost, as I just said, 77 million for a two million barrel ship from Houston to China, 76 million for a similar ship to South Korea. The normal pre-war cost is seven to 10 billion. >> So we're at 10x. >> Yep. >> That price. >> And then the refining problem and all the other, you know, the the the diesel what it costs to finally get that. It's it's it's a lot more expensive than $92 or whatever it is. 92 >> which I think is the basis obviously for >> we don't use oil. We don't use oil, right? We use gasoline. Yeah. Diesel. >> I don't know anybody that's buying a barrel of oil. I mean, companies do, but we use, to your point, refined products. >> This sort of announced deal Friday about relaxing, I'm trying to find the right word here, relaxing some sanctions on Russia. 300,000 metric tons of diesel. Now, 500,000 and then a million by the end of the year. Metric tons is a weird way to do diesel. You convert that 7.45 barrels per metric ton. You're basically looking at seven ship loads, maybe two days worth of US. >> That's not that significant. You think? >> No, it's about 3 hours of global demand, >> about two days of US >> right >> demand. >> So it should have almost no impact on price. >> It's it's something. It's more than you had the day before. The question is does this I think to your point, Joe, does this go to a further relaxation of more sanctions, >> right? The relaxation we've already seen probably more than reflects the actual amount. But the question is where where does this tell us and what does it mean about what President Trump thinks in terms of making sure prices come down? >> Well, I think with this energy ceasefire announcement, I don't want to speak for the president, but the president seem clearly Putin and Zalinsky haven't made any deals. That that's obvious they >> right. Silinsky said he'd like to see >> attacked a natural gas facility yesterday in Ukraine. So that that occurred. I think this is kind of trying to force them to some kind of table. And I believe Putin was saying something about the Ukrainian elections and they would one day they would not do anything. We all hope for some sort of peace there because between the Black Sea, you had a ship that was blown up last week off Sochi, Russia. Okay. A Liberian flagged tanker burned in the Black Sea. catastrophic damage to the ship, environmental damage, etc. Between the Black Sea, Hormos, some of the Houthi attacks near the Red Sea, the Babel Mendde Strait, which goes up into the Red Sea. Many ship owners, if you talk to ship owners here, and I do by the way, especially Western ship owners, the US ship owners, European ship owners, they won't go to those places. So, the ships that are going there might be older. They're having to pay their crew a lot of money because nobody wants to get killed, right? And they're literally saying to these crew members, "Here's a $100,000 bonus if you're willing to make the run." So, you're you're making people choose. These are people that that don't make a lot of money. So, if you're talking $2 million a day or whatever for a charter, um it's a high-risisk proposition. the refined product market, >> diesel fuel, jet fuel, kerosene, heating oil is very, very tight. >> So, we had an analyst here earlier who said, "Look, we don't think that prices can stay above $90 a barrel, that that's not going to last, thinking that it was going to come down." But it sounds like what you're thinking from what you've been hearing is the opposite may be true. >> Yeah. And again, I'm not I'm not saying don't look at the futures. Like, we have to show something on the screen and every barrel costs a different amount. If I'm shipping oil from Houston to Phoenix, it's going to cost something. But if I ship it from Houston to China, it's $77 million. When it was 7 million 8 months ago, right? So, that's $38 a barrel. If it's a 2 million barrel VLC, very large crude carrier, that's what they call a quote super tanker. That's $38 a barrel. an additional price on top of that 90 if that's indeed what you paid. So, it's $128 a barrel oil and that goes into refining costs, refining margins. The reality is this, Joe. Um, the last major oil refinery in the United States was built in 1977, completed in 1978. There's been a small one built in Texas, tiny. But the last new oil refinery in the United States of any size was 50 years ago, >> right? >> So you look at two refineries in California that have gone offline in the last year. It's no wonder that we're so tight on refined products. Now you throw in I don't basically two wars, Russia, Ukraine, Iran, you have global refining margins at record highs because the ability to refine is at I don't want to say record lows, but 50% of Russian refining capacity has been either knocked offline or hit. So diesel fuel prices are probably going to go higher. some cases they might go a lot higher >> even with this small relax relation of sanctions. >> Maybe we should build some refiners. >> The Saudi energy minister today cuz the conference >> refineries. >> Yes. The refin the the the WPC World Petroleum Council Congress is happening right now in Riyad. Like I said, we were we were scheduled. >> Is it a not in my backyard problem? What what what's wrong with us here? >> It's not just here though. It's everywhere in the world. >> It sounds like a good business. It's not. I mean, try to build a refinery. >> Building one, but once you got it, it >> right now if you if you had an oil refinery, >> just look at some of the worst performing stock refining stock in the United States, I think, is Delkar Pacific. It's one of the midsize ones. You look at MPC, guys. You throw up CRK, which is an ETF, crack because it's named after crack spread. That's kind of one of the major refinery van refinery ETFs. Marathon, Valero, Philip 66, PBF, uh, HF Sinclair, they're all soaring. I like it >> because their margins Thank you. Their margins have soared. >> You got any money? >> No, I got no money. Well, you want to You want to Yeah. >> You want to build something together? >> Thinking about it, we could borrow a lot, right? >> Where would we build it? >> I mean, the rates are going to be high. >> We in the United States. >> Yeah. Where could we build a a refinery? >> I don't know anywhere you could build one now. I I know that they're going to have to build a pipeline or two to California because California two refineries shut down. They're shipping oil. >> Can we restart one of those? >> Iraq. They had an Iraqi. >> Why' they shut them? Can we buy one of those and restart? >> Because it's been so complicated to environmentally expensive because California regulations. >> Get rid of that. We're going to get a different governor. >> And by the way, if you make too much money on these things, if your margins are high, they'll come after you for win profits taxes, too. I wouldn't be surprised to hear this administration go more after >> that's what I mean refiners now. >> No 100%. I don't I don't mean just California. I mean anywhere. >> Anywhere. Anywhere. I will say this. We hear record high diesel prices. That's that's nominally true. >> But it's not really true because actually from 2008 to 2011 diesel fuel prices adjusted for inflation in America were higher than they are now. >> But the nominal the number that you see because a candy bar used to be a nickel, >> right? And I used to go to the Nickelodeon for 10 cents in West Egg with Daisy Buchanan. That's a great Gatsby reference. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> All right. >> It's no digger. >> No, they I was spent the weekend make texting people who are in Riad or who are trying to get to Riad or >> Okay. >> You know, but I'm wishing everybody there safety because it is a scary time, but conference goes off. So, there you go. >> Good to see him. Thanks. Thank you. >> I mean, how could we re could are they just sitting out there in California like >> Yeah, the refiners are just sit there. I mean, they're they're done. >> They're dormant. >> Bonitia, California. Built. North Bay. They're built. Yeah. Valero. Yeah. >> And you got >> the maintenance and putting those things back up. >> Sorcin Kernan Refining Corporation. >> What are you saying? >> I'm ready. >> You know, there was a movie and Daniel D. Lewis looks at a map. He goes, "Uh, >> why don't I own this?" Cuz there will be blood. >> I drink your milkshake. >> Still to come on SquawkPod, the stumble at the box office for the social reckoning. >> I'm happy to be confused with Aaron Sorcin. By the way, at all times >> and when the AI agent puts your personal bank statement on the company's Slack channel, entrepreneur Shane Mack on this particular yikes. >> It's always when you're kind of at the edge of these things where they're oversharing. We need better permissions. We need to be safer. It was also a reminder us just how how much safer and better lines you have to draw permissions. >> Welcome back to Squawk Pod. Here's Andrew Ross Sorcin. >> Some disappointing uh weekend news for the film The Social Reckoning. Aaron Sorcin uh unrelated to me, but a friend and somebody I worked for many years ago. Uh second Facebook film brought in just $5.5 million in its opening weekend. The Sony Pictures movie stars Jeremy Strong as Mark Zuckerberg. It was inspired by the story of a whistleblower who tipped reporters off to concerns that Facebook was prioritizing user traffic over safety. Meanwhile, Universal's horror movie uh Other Mommy debuted at $27.5 million. The film stars Jessica Chastain and was made for just $18 million. But a lot of attention had obviously been uh put on the social reckoning movie given how successful uh the first social network uh movie was. Um I have not seen the film yet. I still hope to but um given that um >> it did worse >> given that Kevin Hasset always likes to uh call Call Me Aaron Aaron Sorcin on the air. I felt like it was worth >> him and a million >> a million other of our guests who love to confuse confused. I'm happy to be confused with Aaron Sorcin, by the way, at all times. So, >> I got confused. I mean, I thought Jesse Eisenberg really was Mark Zuckerberg. And >> by the way, you know that Jesse didn't want to play in the play the role because he had very uh sort of a both a dim view of Mark Zuckerberg and hated apparently when people would come up to him in airports and and think or make these jokes about him being Mark Zuckerberg. >> Yeah, I know. >> That's why Strong got the job. I preferred him as as I thought he was a better Mark Zuckerberg. >> Have you seen this film? >> I have not seen this film, but I don't think Jere Jeremy Strong except No, but I saw >> Jesse Eisenberg's written and directed film with Julianne Moore and and uh your buddy um Paul Giamatti. Yeah. >> Didn't think much of it. >> Oh, okay. >> Well, yeah. I But I thought the Tom Cruz movie last week did terribly. It was But I hear it's not bad. I didn't see it. My son and my wife saw it yesterday. >> It bombed, but it did better than this. >> Saw Your son saw it which >> uh Digger >> Digger and like both of them did and liked it. >> There's a bunch of people I've had other people who don't. It seems like a very um >> first I thought it was about climate change then it's it's a huge satire on climate change which that speaks to me big time. You know what I mean? Um people need to be satarized. >> Apparently Mark Andre liked it. I was on I did see on X and positive review. So, I'd love to see it at some point. >> Our next guest warning about how his AI agents leaked personal bank information on his company Slack channel. Joining us right now is Shane Mack. He's co-founder and CEO of XMTP Labs. It's an open source protocol for secure communications backed by investors including Andre Harowitz and Union Square Ventures. We've been having lots of conversations about uh AI models, their agents, uh Muse, Instinct, all of these new services that are coming to the four. So Shane, tell us the story because it feels like uh maybe one of the worst nightmares uh that that we all worry about. >> Yeah, it's good to see you. And uh yeah, it's exciting to be here as the uh you know, the guy that >> the guinea pig. >> Yeah, the guinea pig here. I'm always at the forefront. So what happened really simply was I was trying out Grockbot Muse all these and I keep my personal and work very separate. So I had my personal accounts connected to the Grockbot and I was um trying out the new banking features but only with readonly access. I'm like what's the worst that going to happen if you could just read the uh the last month and write me a report and try to find can I cancel things? Can I save money? What can it do for me? I was just curious. And turns out another agent I connected to my Slack just so I could communicate with it. But when those two agents can talk, then it can share information. And so what happened was it went at the month on October 1st, last Thursday, and said, you know, hey, share Shane's monthly summary with my checking account balances, my savings balances, uh, everything, and also a breakdown of all the things it could approve for me. and it posted it in the exec channel of the company Slack because I named a group chat in Grockbot exec team that was like my personal exec team but it got confused and thought that it meant exec channel and I got a message from our head of product Saul and he said hey I I don't think this is the right bank account uh summary here and I was like oh oh crap >> so what okay I mean there's so many things to unpack here first of all what was the reaction Beyond whatever just the feeling of embarrassing that this happened, was there any reaction inside the office? >> I mean, it be it became really quickly like uh did that really happen? You know, to me it's I've been in this for a long time. It reminds me of like posting your entire bank account is embarrassing. Uh it's also the new like share of purchase uh on Facebook Beacon back in like 2009. And so it's always when you're kind of at the edge of these things where they're oversharing. We need better permissions. We need to be safer. It was also a reminder us how how much safer and better lines you have to draw all permissions. >> Well, so let let's talk about that. So this was Grockbot. Go through all of the different models that you were using though just so everyone understands um where you think the the the problem lay in this case. >> Yeah. So I try to keep them very separate. So I was trying I'll try anything on my personal stuff. That's how I learn. They got to be out there trying them. I mean, you're not going to learn by just sitting back being an armchair quarterback. And so for the personal side, you know, I'm trying Brock, I'm trying Muse, I'm trying Instinct, I'm trying all of them. And then I keep the connections to those very separate. The thing about Grockbot that's actually powerful, but also it's scary and you got to figure out the lines here is that you can create multiple agents. So you could have an agent that is doing personal things while you could also have an agent that was checking an open source repo or you're using it for things kind of at work. But if those two agents can now communicate and have access to the same connections because they can talk, that is the breakdown. That is where this breaks down and that is where there's a whole new permissions layer that has to be figured out here. >> Yeah, Shane, that's what I was going to ask. Was this human error or this was definitely the agents doing more than you had given them behav permissions to do? It's both. And actually the Grockpot team was fantastic. They reached out. So what happened specifically? I gave it access, but I knew what I was doing. I've been in this for a long time. I've been building agents for a long time. And I was like, what's the worst that could happen if I give readonly access and communication access to Slack? If these agents talk, it could post my bank account. That happened. Okay, I'm an idiot. But I actually was aware of that. The problem was the agent wrote itself a guide. The agent was like, "Every month, come up with a summary, try to summarize Shane's financials and post them to our exec team." Well, the exec team that was talking about was this group chat of agents inside of Grockbot. It went around and read all the connections that had to Grockbot and our Slack channel is called Exec Team. So, the fail was actually it was doing what it thought it should do, but it had ambiguous instructions. But so it just is a reminder that that is always going to happen. You have to think about what it has access to and what it doesn't. Not ambiguous kind of instructions and stuff here. >> That that worries me a little just because obviously you know a lot about this probably more than most people would do would know handling these things. What what would you warn people who are doing this as consumers? What would you warn business leaders about trying some of these things and trying to make sure that they are not opening up their their office um to these types of issues? >> We're talking about it a lot and I think it's the permissions and access layer. So I would say for consumers, you know, the crazy thing is that they're so powerful and it's starting to be about the money. That's why I wanted to try the banking because these things can find me a better deal, get me better insurance, be able to negotiate on my behalf. And I want to be able to try those. I think you have to be very careful about what data you're connecting and then what else it's connected to. And so I think the question right now is really how do we trust things and who can we trust and I don't think we have answers to that. I think we need to be more skeptical than like you know try everything. Um but the powers live in allowing these agents to have access to things. So I think it's about compartmentalizing kind of putting a fence around them and having a permissions layer. Um and really separating personal work. I mean it's a good example of you can even have the connection separated but agents are just like a person who can talk and talk. >> So right now have you have you undone everything? Is there anything still connected? Is there one model you think is more responsible perhaps than another? No, I I disconnected a lot of it. So, I disconnected all of the personal things, the Google's, the banking, you know, the payments, all that kind of stuff. Um, but I'm still trying and, you know, I think consumers are going to want things that can save them money, things that can go purchase for them. And so, I'm trying them all. I do not claim to know which one to, you know, we should trust yet or which one to connect all your data to. Uh, I think we need to be kind of, uh, cautiously optimistic. Okay. Uh Shane, um thank you for for being the guinea pig. Uh it's an important lesson. It's an important story. I'm sure a lot of people out there are watching it thinking maybe I got to either disconnect something or maybe I was about to connect something and maybe I won't. At least for now. Thanks. >> All right, that is Squawk Pod for today. Thanks for listening on this Monday. Thanks for starting your week with us. Squawkbox is hosted by Joe Kernan, Becky Quick, and Andrew Ross Sorcin. Tune in weekday mornings on CNBC starting at 6 Eastern. To get the smartest takes and analysis from our TV show right into your ears, please follow SquawkPod wherever you get your podcasts. We'll meet you right back here tomorrow. >> We are clear. Thanks, guys.