HomeView: Apple just got serious about the smart home

Hello and welcome to the Vergecast, the flagship podcast of personal context, a thing that means everything and nothing in the Apple ecosystem. I'm your friend David Pierce. I am joined by uh two of my colleagues and I would say maybe one and two on the list of Verge smart home sickos. Uh number one with a bullet, Jen Tui. Hi Jen, welcome. >> Hello. Hello. >> And my friend and yours, Neil Patel. Hello, sir. >> I'm just a dillant. A smart home dilotant. >> Are you okay with being number two to Jen? Jen is like, >> "Oh, it's not even a question. It's like >> it's like, "Are you okay with being number two to Michael Jordan?" It's like, "Yes, I will be the I will collect my rings and quietly go home and we'll all know what's true." >> And then in 30 years, you'll make a really saucy documentary about how Jen never could have done it without you. I know. >> Yes. >> True. Very true. >> Um, we are here. We are live on YouTube. Apple just had its big welcome home. It I hesitate to call it an event. Uh, Jen, I want to talk a little bit about the last sort of 24 hours of your life because the the experience of this launch has been really interesting. But, uh, Apple just made its big long- aaited push into the smart home. We have a new device called the Home View that we're going to talk about a lot. We have a new HomePod mini. We have a new Apple TV. We have a bunch of LG made sensors and devices. >> There's Schneider Electric. Come on, dog. >> I've been talking about Schneider Electric a lot and and I keep getting people telling me, "Why are we talking about this before before today? Now everyone cares. I actually had them install a smart home panel in my house, but that's a whole another story. >> There you go. Shout out to Schneider Electric over >> saying smart home sickos. I don't think you understand that Gemini are smart home sickos. A lot of what we've been talking about for years just got thrust into the foreground. >> They're actually one of the original founders of matter or like original early product companies in matter. But anyway, get ready for this episode of the Vergecast, everyone. Um, I will warn you there there are going to be several instances of a new game that I'm going to instigate on the Vergecast called Should This Have Been an iPad. Um, this is going to come up several times in this conversation, so get ready. Um, >> I have strong feelings about that one. >> I So do I, and so do our commenters. Um, Travis, our producer, is also going to uh be looking through all of your comments. We're looking at them, too, but it's far away from me and my eyesight is not what it once was. So, we're gonna, if you have comments, if you have questions, throw it all up. Travis is going to put a bunch on the screen and make us have feelings about them. Um, Jen, let's start with you. Tell us tell us about your day so far. This has been a strange Apple launch. Uh, we've all been to all flavors of Apple launches, but this was an unusual one. Just give us a sense of your day today. >> This is my first ever Inerson Apple event. So, yes, >> they don't normally invite me because they don't normally do anything with the smart home. So, this was a big uh this was a big moment for the smart home um Apple finally paying some attention after a decade of sort of it being a hobby project it feels like. But um yes, so I um so today the event started at 9:00 a.m. this morning and you're right, it's not in the in the lexicon of um Apple experiences. This is an experience is what they called it, not an event. So there wasn't a big onstage presentation, but there was a keynote um with uh one of the sort of product leads from Apple Home talking about the new product, showing the video, which I think we will get to. Um and then we then they sort of so it was in this uh Tribeca townhouse and which is something I think Apple has several events there a year for different products, but it was a home environment. So everything was sort of set up in situ. Although there was one demo area where it was all like put on plinths and looks like the crown jewels kind of thing. Um and I was taken through like different experiences. It was very similar. I think you both came to the Amazon event um a couple years ago where they had little rooms set up with different experiences. It was very much like that. But the key difference here was that Apple hired an interior designer to completely design the home space um to make it look more authentic and not not not made by a tech company, which I I have to say I actually appreciated because it really was a nice space. All of the all of the rooms were very well done because they were turned by a professional. Um and then you know the the home devices were sort of interspersed. They were so well interpersed that you kind of missed them. You're like, "Oh, hang on. I need to go back there." that there was one there. Um so yeah, that was so I went through a few different experiences in that space um for all the new products and then they had a sort of like I said the sort of the room where everything's just on um on displays but all of that stuff was not you couldn't control it. It was all in demo mode. So, um, I I did, but I got to do some actual hands-on in the the house space, the apartment, the very expensive New York City loft apartment that I would love to move into if if they're looking for >> this place is spectacular. Would you like me to bring smart home? We're available. >> I know. I'm like, I could I could definitely, you know, torture test this for you. So, I I'm I'm actually curious about the demos that they did for you because I think the the big question that has shown up everywhere as this launch has been happening. Obviously, this is a a controller for your home. I'm almost hesitant to call it a smart home device, which is a thing I want to talk about and I think is a thing that you're struggling with, too. But the the question of what does Apple perceive this thing to be? It's a 7in screen that you can you can mount it on the wall, you can put it on a table, you can plug it in, you can you can whatever it is. It is a home device that is supposed to do lots of things for lots of people. And I want to get into all of those things, but I'm fascinated by the way that Apple decided to explain to you what this thing is for. Like what what were the demos that you actually got to see at the >> Yeah. Yeah. Um and I mean I probably should I didn't really get into it, but obviously there were a lot of products announced. So, there was the home view, which is the smart display, and then there was the new Apple TV, the new HomePod mini, um, and also lots of uh, smart home accessories as part of a new Apple Home collection from LG and Schneider. So, that was like door locks and thermos. >> Schneider will actually paying you, Jen. Just be honest. This is the time to say it. >> But, yeah, they're a great company. No, you know, if you haven't if you they probably made the um inwall cir breaker box in your house. That's what they make. Anyway, um yes, I'm I'm being uh diverted. So, uh this was built interestingly and they Apple always has a script. So, everyone we talk to sort of said the same thing. It's built as um both a entertainment device um a personal device and a home. >> Apple has to stop doing this. They're they've become a cover band. Do like in in like a very important way. Apple's like we had a big hit and we're going to do that hit again and it's like it was an internet communicator and a widescreen iPod and this one's like it's an entertainment device and this other thing and a third thing. Can I just play the role of the smart home sicko in the audience watching this all go down? Yes. And I last night at like midnight I was looking at Jen's coverage. It was about to go up and I all I could say was is this just weird and complicated and a little bit confusing because all of it seems weird and complicated and a little bit confusing. And I think your question about should it be an iPad? The idea that I have to go buy new cameras for the outside of my house to use the new Apple device when the cameras on my house already have an iOS app is just like the disconnect in my brain is just monumental. >> I did specifically ask them. I said, "So, can I like download the Ring app and view my Ring cameras?" No, they didn't actually say no, but they just went on with another question. They were like, "So, but you can view HomeKit secure video cameras through the Home app." easily the most complicated way to do any cameras ever. Someone, what is it? Uh, Anjed 300, great name. Uh, says interesting. It'll have CarPlay apps. It won't have CarPlay apps. >> Right. >> There will be another class of apps using the CarPlay framework. >> Yes. Right. >> You have to make you have to make an app for the phone. You have to make a CarPlay app for that phone. You have to redo that app for the iPhone now. And then you have to make a second thing that is based on the CarPlay framework for this thing. Well, so yeah, and I didn't I didn't get into deep details around that. They did say that basically it uses the CarPlay architecture. So any of the current audio device audio apps that work in CarPlay should work. Although um so like they mentioned Audible. Um and I I assume Spotify because that's one that does. Um but no video because right now no video services are on CarPlay. I don't know because I don't use CarPlay, but I'm guessing you don't watch Netflix while you're driving down the interstate. I can see why there's a death of >> there's a there's a there's a path to video and CarPlay, but that's just like a why should I know about that as a consumer of this device that is meant to be plugged into my kitchen. >> I think the idea behind the CarPlay is it's it's curated apps. So not every So the way it works is when you it's like the Apple Watch in the early days um when you added any device any app you had on your phone that was compatible with the Apple Watch could automatically show up on the Apple Watch. >> We have a smart home sicko in the comments who says that is scripted. I'm just shouting you out. Like that's how deep we are. We've we've talked about this little Apple Watch on a on a on a hockey puck for five minutes and we've mentioned Schneider Electric. We've mentioned Scripted. We've gotten our other HomeKit secure video and whether or not we're forking CarPlay. >> Wait, can let me can I just play devil's >> just to plug it in and make it work. >> Let let me just let me just swing all the way the other way and point out that almost no one has smart home stuff. The smart home is bad. It is full of products that don't work together and most people >> shut your mouth when he's talking at most at most have a doorbell camera like or or Hue lights. Those are the two things that like real people have in their lives coming from him. Okay, so this is what I was going to ask is like I I think I expected this to be like Apple launching itself into the smart home universe and this to me felt like Apple more or less pretending that the smart home doesn't exist and that Apple is about to invent the smart home and and that's a very Apple thing to do in a way that is kind of annoying but is also like >> maybe not completely wrong for something like this. Like most people don't have these devices and you have them all. the idea of like I need to drop this into my home assistant like no you don't don't buy this thing but like >> wait let me just push back on this and I I want Jen to answer because she is by far and away the expert when you say most people might have a Ring doorbell >> lots and lots and lots of people have Ring doorbells you get a Ring doorbell for $99 that you install by peeling the tape off the back and sticking it to the wall, right? And like millions of people have those things. So, there's a part where Apple gets to reinvent the ecosystem, and there's a part where you just have to stare at reality and be like, in order to make this thing work in your home, the home you already have today, you have to get a new doorbell. >> Yeah, >> that's weird. I just think that's weird. >> Ring is a difficult one because it was supposed to support HomeKit if anyone remembers all the way back. I'm sure the commenters remember. Um, and Ring is notoriously closed. Um, a lot of the other doorbell manufacturers, I think, could potentially >> work with this device if Apple Home supported Mattera cameras. They don't yet. So, yes, it's all HomeKit secure video. Um, I don't think Ring is ever going to support matter cameras. Um, not with Jamie Simonov as the CEO. Um, but Sidewalk they will. Um, and I do so, but but to David's point that I think Apple does I was I was all excited that Apple could come in and like actually do something really cool and fun with this device and make and bring Siri AI and bring some really good capabilities. I've been testing home assistant AI's smart home assistants AI for the last year and I can see so much potential here. But I'm up here in the smart home in terms of what I want it to do and how advanced I'd love to see. And Apple is coming in right down in the basement and like, okay, we're going to say we have people that use our devices. They're going to see this device and think it's a nice extension of their iPhone in the home, which is essentially what I feel like it is. Um, and then, oh, it's going to be really easy to add a doorbell because there's one that Apple recommends. They said to me, we get people asking us what we should buy all the time. Now, we have things we can say this is what you should buy. Um, so yeah, and and then I was talking I had an interview with two execs today and one of the things they were saying was, "Yeah, we see this. Yes, we know there are a lot of people that are deeply invested in the smart home, but most people aren't and this but what gets them in there is one device and they're like, "Oh, this works and oh, it works quite well. Maybe I'll try something else." The problem is when they start with one device and it doesn't work well and it's a bad experience and then they're like, "I'm done with this. Why would I even want to waste my time?" Um, so they that's the whole sort of point of the home collection with these these partnerships is they're much easier in theory to set up. Um, they set up just like your AirPods do is the idea. You just come you can tap with NFC and it recognizes the device. So they're going for simplicity and ease of use. And my hope is that that that then they'll build on that. Um, but right now this is very much tailored to smart home 101. Um and the device itself is you know first and foremost um they talk about it as being a a way to sort of communicate with loved ones. So the FaceTime like the iPhone experience is part of it. Um then enjoy entertainment. So music is the one they mainly pushed because there is no well no obvious um third party video yet. But they said >> you say enjoy entertainment. >> Enjoy. >> You spent too long at an Apple. >> I'm about I want to read the phrase. So this is what they said. Enjoy entertainment, connect with loved ones. So I described an iPod with touch controls >> and control your smartome. So the smart home was breakrough third. >> Um and yeah, that was that that's the sort of that's the sales pitch that they were that they were giving for this device. And yeah, it's not targeted at the person. It's really not even targeted at the person like I was that carved a hole in their wall and stuck an iPad in it and figured out somehow some way to plug it in. It does have PoE though, so yay. Um, and it's not targeted at that person. It's just it's targeted at someone that um is really deeply in the Appleo ecosystem and might start to move into the smart home. Not to say that you wouldn't find it. >> Can I can I just can I just can I just take those two ideas and and once again the swirl of confusion in my brain that they have created. It's targeted someone who doesn't have a smart home, who's in the Apple ecosystem and might want to begin with the LG camera or or doorbell, but also if you know what power over Ethernet is and you have that in your walls, they made one for you. And it's like, well, that's a different guy. Like, >> you know, that's Jen. It's Jen is the person I know with power over internet. throwing the power users under the bus here. >> But then you're like, you're going to have this thing in your wall and you're like, you know what I'd love to do is put Home Assistant on it. By the way, someone just shouted out that Home Assistant has a CarPlay app like where what are we doing? >> There's just so much about this where it's in order to make it interesting. >> Yeah. >> In order to make it interesting, everything in the smart home is an edge case. I think I've heard you say that, Jim. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. Everything is a weird special corner case of weirdness and Apple is trying to do the thing where they're they're simplifying it. Yes. >> And actually the thing to do in a world where you have a an AI system in the background is embrace how complicated it is. >> Yes. And I asked them this question too. I said, you know, you've harped on a lot about how Siri AI it was the reason that they launched this now is because Siri was ready and Siri brought capabilities to the home to the home environment that they could leverage. And I said, but you've already said how powerful this AI is. Could you do something good with it? Could you do something fun? Could you get it to like make my smart home work better and have I said, you know, I love all this personal context, but how about some home context? Could that be part of this device? And >> how is the user switched? Here's here's actually I feel like we should we've gotten so into being smart homes that goes but that's like what happens when you when you talk about a smart home for 5 seconds. But right the idea is okay it's sitting in your kitchen. Maybe we should just watch this video. But the idea is it's sitting in the kitchen. >> I didn't get to try the user switching because obviously I'm not a registered user. So yeah the video shows it quite well I think. And they said that that's very true to life. >> Should we just watch this video? >> Yeah. Let So there's this. Let me just set this up real fast. So, the Apple put this out with this like three minute long video showing a family of five navigating this thing. And I think this video essentially tells you everything you need to know, good and bad and impossible, about what the home view is, actually. So, the way we're going to do this is we're just going to start this video and anybody say pause at any time and then we can talk about it. Sound good? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> All right. >> I need the bathroom. >> THERE'S ONE DOWNSTAIRS. >> FINE. WHO KEEPS TOUCHING THIS? >> YOU promised French toast, bro. >> I'm not your bra. >> Promises were made, Vincent. >> Fine. >> Hey, Siri, find the French toast recipe that mom said. Pause. >> Yeah, right there. Where is it? >> Where is this device? Uh >> oh, I know where it is. >> Okay. Well, also importantly, the the immediate assumption here that that becomes very important to this entire thing is that this device not only understood the request but understood who is making the request >> and and this goes back to I think the the single feature that makes this thing succeed or fail is the multi-user support. And the idea, as I understand it, is that you, it's able to recognize up to six people, and it uses the camera to recognize and and switch between users >> as long as those users have iOS devices. >> Correct. But importantly, this dude who was just talking to Siri was not looking at it, was not close to it. I don't know if he was in range or not. So, so now I'm at the point where like does does at this moment Siri who is talking to it or is this considered like a a group project because >> that's a message. So the message is personal context. So that had to have recognized him. So yeah, >> Jen, how >> well and that was one of the things I said in my piece. I'm like I don't having to stand in front of a device and stick your face in it to get it to react is not a good experience. I've tried that with the e echo shows have that. >> This comes up a bunch in this video actually. Let's let's just keep going here. This is the you you bring up one of the things I want to talk about. Let's just keep playing here. >> I found a message from mom with a link to a French toast recipe from Taste of Home. >> Okay, stop. >> I was going to >> stop. Okay, >> every recipe blogger on the internet just exploded. >> Like we were just looking at a story from five years ago from developers who put out an app called Recipesly where they scraped all the recipes and didn't show the you know the SEO content at the top that gets people traffic. Like Apple's like, "Well, the web's dead. We're just going to scrape what's left of it for French toast recipes." And no one will react to that. I'm just gonna tell you, we have already assigned that story because it's it's wild that Apple got here. Continue. >> Mhm. >> Bet you didn't know that French toast isn't actually French. >> Yeah, right. Then why is it called French? Genius. >> Fine. Live in ignorance. >> Hold, please. >> Siri, French toast French. >> No, French toast is not originally from France. >> Where's the power cable? >> Now he's standing in front of it. So I >> Okay, so the power cable has been drilled into the counter >> into the counter. Just point that out. >> As as one does when you buy a new kitchen. >> Who with children has not put a hole into their kitchen counter. >> All right, keep going. Sorry. >> It's literally in the paint. >> Whatever, Bruno. >> Okay, right there. Pause. >> Do you Jen, this is what you're talking about? So, the >> So, she's right in front of it. >> The mom and the family just had to walk up to it, swivel it 90 degrees, and have it look at her. And this, I think, is is is like this is the behavior. And this is where I come to the first, shouldn't this just be an iPad? Uh, like, wouldn't it make a lot more sense if I could hand you a thing that you could then hold and look at instead of everyone having to crowd around your kitchen island and literally spin like >> No, no, no. over it. When I got my mom her first iPad, like a first generation iPad, the the first accessory we got for it was a mount that like mounted o on the top cabinets of the kitchen so she could put it there and like scroll through recipes on it. And this thing was like the biggest. It's just this. It's f it's a stand. It's fine. >> So you're saying yes. >> I'm defending the home view in this case. This could You just said it could have been. It's not I'm I'm just defending the the the mounting dynamic. >> This is why there's going to be one with a rotating arm though, right? >> Yeah, >> that's the next I This is fine. The idea that it's a little display on a stand that lives in your kitchen. >> Totally in the realm of every other device of this. >> I don't know. Well, we should keep playing this, but there is something to the like chaos of them all swiveling this thing around towards themselves to get their information that just >> And none of them has their phone. Well, this is my favorite thing about this is that no one does have their phone and it's the most unrealistic aspect of this video, but also the most optimistic because if I honestly if if you promised me that if I got this device 5 years ago, my kids would not be using their phone at breakfast with or even though I tell them they can't but still sneaky it um I would have bought it because it's like having oh no you don't need your phone cuz it's all right here. I mean, this is something that smart displays have been trying to do for a long time is replace your phone. So, you don't need them to control your home. You don't need them to like I would try and use Google Nest Hub so that my kids could watch like Teen Titans Go. But unfortunately, it would only play in Spanish for some reason. >> So, >> all right, let's carry on. I will say, but Jen, your children are older than ours. >> Am I am I meant to believe that as teenagers are my children will only argue about French toast in the providence thereof? >> Because I'm looking forward to that. All right, let's keep going. Hey, who canled Harper's ride? Uh, I canled it. >> Oh, I'm going to walk today. Boyfriend, >> what? Sorry, something went through. >> It's for you. >> Pause. Hello. >> This I just think is really interesting. It It gets a FaceTime call and it says underneath it who it's for. >> Yes. Yes. And so this there's just all these little multi-user questions that it's like when you get an incoming call, how how do you communicate who is supposed to answer it? Is anyone able to answer it? It's just a button. Like so many questions. >> Oh no. So I will let me just complicate this further. So I already have this device in my home because I have an old iPhone on one of those Belcon mag safe stands that sits by the door and it just has HomeKit scenes >> on standby. >> Yep. And it just whatever you can turn lights on and off using the buttons on that thing. And if someone calls me, that phone always rings. I cannot make it not ring in the way that you know Apple devices are like a phone call. Like we everyone panic. Uh and so I already have this problem that I'm not at home and the thing is ringing. Yeah. >> And my daughter, if she sees that it's my mom, my daughter will pick it up and be like, "Hi." And it's fine because at least they're having a conversation. But I'm very curious how that works with this because so much of this device is tied to your iPhone being at home running iOS 27 for some features to work and some features not to work. >> Yeah. >> And I'm dying like that dynamic is just like ever present here, >> right? And it's such a sliding scale, right? There are some things that should obviously be accessible to everybody. There are some things that should obviously only be accessible to you. And then there's just a vast ocean of stuff in the middle that this stuff is just going to have to sort out. And I think a lot of this will probably become very obvious as we get to live with these in our house which which ones worked and which one didn't. >> But all I see in this entire ad is just questions about who is supposed to answer this call and who is supposed to be able to even see that they're getting a call. >> And that and getting your kids to put their profiles on this will be very hard. I don't know many kids that are going to want their text messages showing up on the the screen and at the kitchen table and I've tried to get my kids to use because um Amazon Echo have face ID and voice match and I it was a frustrating experience. So Apple promises this is a much more seamless like it should happen really fast but yeah that extra friction makes the smart display less useful um and it should be more of a communal device. I feel like I feel like making it a personal device. Is the is there differentiation here though from the other products on the market right now? >> I will say shout out we're like one minute into this three-minute video. We've already talked about 500 things and the idea that these people are living a life written by Aaron Sorcin is very very prevalent. Like everyone is talking as fast as they can and they all got business. >> Yeah. About French toast. All right, keep going. Let's play through this. >> Is that your time? >> Dad, we're a bit busy now. >> What's with the beard? >> We don't like the beer. Never did. Hey, has anyone seen my keys? >> Uh, nope. Haven't seen him. >> He looks like that. I thought we hate. >> Yeah. >> Hey, good pep talk, >> guys. >> Uh, call from the car. Love you. >> Okay, bye >> bye. >> Carlo's late. Siri, bring my keys. He need your keys. >> So, just pause, first of all. I mean, classic, but she has a phone, right? like she he's on the device talking to grandpa >> and she has to wait, >> right? >> Like it's just like it's just a weird dynamic there. >> Yeah, cuz he was he was the user and now then she has to switch. And also she wasn't close enough for it to know it was her because it doesn't use just the voice, it uses the face. Um so that was a little a little uh it felt a little disingenuous there cuz she >> Yeah. And we we don't know how fast the user switching is either, right? This is the number one question I have for this device is when no one's in front of it, what is the user? Does it have a generic user that can do some things and control some? >> I think the answer is yes because there's some there's some mentions in even the press release about like guests being able to access stuff. So, >> right, let's assume that there is a base level. >> We have no idea who you are. >> Sure. But in the Apple ecosystem, there are there's no generic user. There's no base level of access that a device can have. Everything is user based. >> You're called an unrecognized user. So, >> so this is a new user in the Apple ecosystem. This is what I mean like their architecture does not have that category in it. Everything is a user. Everything is an iCloud account. Everything is permissioned. So, they've invented a new unrecognized user. Yeah. that has some capabilities. Some >> anything that doesn't require personal context or that doesn't control security devices in your home can be accessed by anyone without being recognized. So you are the unrecognized user. So you can turn lights on and off. You can control thermostats. You can um ask questions the general knowledge um play music any live streams from videos. You just can't re rewind and see recordings. And yeah, it's very much a um it's a guest mode, but you are you're an unrecognized user. You can also tailor it. So if you have a a device in a guest room, you can just give them control of their devices in their home in their room rather than the whole house. That kind of stuff. So yeah, >> John wrote a post about the the multi-user stuff and one of the things he said is that Apple told him uh that there is a presumption that just by the fact that it's in your house, whoever is talking to it is reasonably allowed to do so. And I think that's fine, right? Right. And some of that exists on the Apple TV. Some of like you just if you are in range of this thing, you should be able to do some things on it. I think is fine. And >> so that this is that that's my question. So they've I am guessing that they did not rearchitect their entire user account system. Just a I'll just I might be wrong, right? Well, we're going to get the device. We'll ask a million questions. We'll find out. But I'm I'm guessing that all of that is basically the same as it has been. So they've invented a new user. And I know the Apple TV if you don't have to set up users, but the Apple TV still needs you to have an Apple account in order to download apps. Like their entire user model is predicated around Apple accounts. It's just in the realest way. So then they made a new user that needs to be logged into something to get access to HomeKit. So is that a variant of the your account? Like I I'm just dying to know because the thing that needs to happen is then you show up. David, you show up and it sees your face and it switches to your account with your permissions >> and then you hang up the call, you turn it, Jen's there to ask for her keys and needs to switch to her account and go into her devices and ping her find my and I have no idea how quickly those users will switch. They're all active at the same time and the devices just quickly like >> I mean RAM's expensive. So are is everything active at the same time? Like this is the core promise of this device in a real way and how it works to me is still kind of a mystery and this video is not making it clear. >> That said, if it works the way it is depicted, it would be incredible. Like this is the kind of thing that sort of simultaneous multi-person multi-use device would be unbelievable and is something that nothing in the home for any system like this does a good job of right now. And it is actually exactly what we need. So the idea of that is like the foundation of my smart home, >> right? So we have what's it? Jord Lopez 1175 is like it's an extension of your phone, not a replace. Great. >> It's an extension of six people's phones. >> Yes. >> That is just a new operating model for the whole deal. >> Yep. >> Right. Is it's this thing is six phones at once. Okay. Which one is active? How does it know? What if two people fight? Like there's a lot of questions and it's an extension of your phone for sure. And this is the multi-user issue is exactly the reason why an iPad has never fit into this role properly. It's been very hard to use it as a home control device. Um because >> well, Apple just wants to sell all of your children. >> Why? Why, Jen, why couldn't Apple do every single thing it did here on an iPad? The I like one of the core brands of the Verge is that we have asked every person who works at Apple for a decade why we can't do better multi-user support on iPads. and and it's just a lot of like shrugging at us. And this is the idea. Like again, this is this is the correct idea about how this should work. >> Maybe it's coming. >> It would be so funny if they they launched this and then like in weeks they're like, "Oh, all these same features are coming." But no, we will not cancel your pre-order. We're so sorry. >> All right. We We need to get off of this. We have a lot of testing left to do. This thing is coming out, I think, in a month. We will we will get >> We didn't even finish the video. >> We didn't even finish the video. We We are too deep in this. But Jen, I do want to know there's been a lot of talk about the hardware. Some people are mad about the bezels. There there are a lot of questions about the the size and shape of the thing. You're the only one of us who has actually looked at it and touched touched it. How do you feel about the hardware? >> I I like the screen. I really like the screen. I mean, it's not a smartphone. I don't The bezels don't bother me. It actually makes it look like more of a photo frame. Um, which is it does it displays photos really beautifully. Um, and I love the way it works. the clock kind of works around your photo so it's not just sort of stuck over your face. Um the photo element is key here and you know you always knew that it would be. Um I think the hardware feels very solid. Um the screen is really responsive. Um I was it it feels like using an iPad. Um a lot of swiping and it has the control center. You swipe up for the apps um as well as the widgets. Obviously, it looks an awful lot like Apple Watch faces. And they actually call these devices the they call the screens faces. And you can choose from multiple faces. You can actually easily swipe, too. You don't have to do like go to your iPhone and set them up. You can just do it all on the device and you can swipe through whichever faces you like. Many of the faces have widgets so that you can control different things. Um, this the sound was was fairly impressive for the size. I was surprised at how small this was actually. The speaker itself is really quite compact. You barely see it behind the screen. >> Um the square form factor I originally was a bit like when obviously this has been leaked for months and years and I thought the square form factor seems a little odd but actually it fits nicely in the home because it's not it doesn't take up as much space. It feels like you can sort of slot it into to areas a little easier than say like the Echo Show 11 or the NestHub Max which are wide and long and they take up a lot of room. So I think form factor >> it doesn't look like a TV which is important. Yeah. Like I think there there are a lot of these devices that look like tiny TVs and I think the aspect ratio is a big part of that and so just the fact that it is a different shape from what amounts to a television in your house I think is goes a long way here. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I mean um I and again I think the and the display is is is nice and bright but also goes down to 0.3 nits which they said is the dimst they've ever done which they Apple said was a strange claim to fame um for a screen but you you know I know goo um NI you use the Google Nest hub and that can get really dim and works actually quite well as a bedside table um device because it gets so dim whereas the Echo shows are too bright. So, I'm interested. They didn't have a dim room for me to test it out. But, I'm very interested to see if this is going to be able to be dim enough to have in a in your bedroom because it could make a nice bedside table display um for controlling, you know, smart devices and, you know, set an alarm, those types of things. I could see it seems like it has for me two core places where it would fit well. The bedroom and the kitchen um in your home and then potentially in like your entryway if you're going to use it for controlling smart devices. Uh, Yellow Mellow asked in our comments, "Jen, can you watch movies and TV shows on it?" Did a lot of people asking this like people want the tiny kitchen TV. Can this be the tiny kitchen? >> So, they said it will depend on devices on apps supporting the CarPlay framework that we discussed earlier, >> whether you get Netflix or Hulu. Um, but there there they are open to it. There is a path to that. It will be up to the apps, the app makers to develop for it. Look, I'm not going to try to try to stand for my Google Home very much. This it is at this point just a confused and lost device. But Google owns YouTube TV and a thing you can do is you can just ask it to play the Packers game and it will just do it. >> Do you know what I mean? that that ecosystem exists and there's just a part of this where Apple being like it was all bad actually is it's working against this product in real ways >> right if you can't just put the YouTube TV app on this thing and run it like what are we what are we doing >> yeah do you think Google will will develop YouTube >> will Google develop a CarPlay variant of the YouTube TV app but only for this device because it's actually not car like >> do you know like there's Just something about this that is like it it's too in a bubble when can we watch the Odyssey on it as Nolan intended is a amazing question. Um Christopher Nolan doesn't give a how he watches movies. This is a real thing. >> Yeah, >> he's he's watch. >> No, he doesn't have a phone. >> Yeah, he doesn't even know how you're watching his movies. He's not worried about it. >> I have so many more questions about this device spec. We obviously have to get it and review it. You can tell I'm like I'm fascinated by it in like 10,000 different ways. But just to come all the way back around to the Schneider Electric of it. >> Oh my god. >> Just just to point this out. >> You too, Patel. >> I There's Schneider devices in this house. They don't just make the panels. They make really nice light switches. They bought a company called Shelly which makes relays and can hide behind real light switches. Like real smart home nerds know that this is this company is a force because they make all the stuff. And all I'm pointing out is, yes, it's it's kind of funny that Apple went to LG, the privacy company, uh, to make a bunch of cameras, so they can send that data to to LG servers, too. Who knows? Um, but they had to go to Schneider because they make all the other stuff, right? If you want a whole bunch of matter light switches and and devices, like Schneider is the company that makes them. Yeah. >> So that little concession to the reality of the smartome is to me like the most revealing part of this whole exercise that if you want this thing to work and you want it to be the Siri AI device that they're, you know, they waited for it to be real before they launched this hardware, the reality is there, right? The reality is that lots of people have EcoB thermostats that are on HomeKit and now you're going to put another screen next to those EcoB thermostats, right? Like the reality is lots of people have doorbells and smart locks and they're incredibly popular and they may or may not work with this. Lots of people I'm staring at my home bridge on the that's over there. My little Raspberry Pi Tamagotchi of a home bridge is over there. That is a popular thing. It's so popular that people have commercialized Humbridge and made companies out of it and there's like scandals and controversies about that. Like I know you think it's small. But all I hear at the end of each one of these sentences is parenthesis and vastly more people do not. >> Right? But if you want to sell this device, this is why I'm bringing up Schneider Electric. If you want to sell this device into anyone's house, you will just run into the brutal reality that everyone's house is different. >> Yes. >> And so everyone needs different things in different ways. Everyone has weird electricity in their house. David, I believe you just had to rewire your entire house. Sure did. Cuz you had weird electricity in your Sure it is, right? Like everyone just has these crazy problems. Some people just are renters and they can't screw things into the wall the way that Apple appears. You don't want to drill holes in your furniture to make this product work. And I the reason I just come back to Snider Electric is like that is the concession here. They needed the partner that makes all of this stuff. >> Yep. >> The other concession is they're partnering with ADT to in install it. So if you go to the Apple store and you buy this stuff, you're like, I don't have anyone to put it in. They will send ADT to your house. Do you know what the least Apple experience you can have in the entire world is? Is dealing with ADT? Like the number of people who are going to get upsold to an ADT security system that does not work with Apple Home but does in fact work with the Google ecosystem because Google is an investor in ADT but boggles the mind. >> So, okay. This is this is this is a good segue into the the Apple Home collection of products with Schneider Electric, the Vergecast's favorite company. Apparently, uh LG made a bunch of stuff. We should talk about all these products. Um >> connecting to the network. >> Thank you, Siri. >> Siri just failed. Like, it literally failed as we're live streaming. >> We We're going to talk about the the Apple TV and the HomePod Mini in a little bit. Um and spoiler alert, everybody, I'm going to make Nei try to justify a $300 Apple TV 4K. So, we will get to that, but first we we need to we need to make some money so we can all go buy these weird things. So, we're going to take a really quick ad break and then we're going to come we're going to get into the home collection. Be right back. >> Support for the show comes from Bit Warden. October is cyber security awareness month and here's an upgrade that actually gives you something back. Time with fewer password resets, less typing thanks to autofill, and no more trying to remember which variation of your dog's name you use this time. Bit Warden is a trusted open- source solution for pass key, password, and secrets management. It makes secure password management available to everyone with a free forever plan for individuals. 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To learn more about how Comcast Business can help protect your business today, visit comcast business.com/cyerscurity. All right, we're back. So, alongside all of Apple's stuff, they also announced a home collection of devices. And before we get into all of them, I just want to say uh shout out to I think it's Guardian 64 in the comments for pointing out one of the funniest Apple listings I've ever seen, which is for the LG temperature sensor. Uh you go to Apple's website and it just has a picture that is just like a a white circle on a white background. It's just like they're just what if what if this device was nothing? It's it's very >> that's how it's supposed to be. Um, Nei, we talked a little bit about this last week on the Vergecast in sort of looking ahead to what this is going to be, and you made the argument that partnering with a company like LG and Schneider Electric, uh, our favorite. Um, makes a lot of sense for a company like Apple if you're going to ship all these things. It's so good. Um, >> what tell me what is going on with the home collection here? Why why do this if you're Apple? So, I don't think Apple wants to make all these devices, but Apple's manufacturing is all about massive scale, like just huge scale. They got to make a billion iPhones this year. They're going to do that. If you want to make a bunch of cameras and get them through all of the certifications and all the countries, like these are just they're better suited to companies that manufacture lots and lots of different things. That's just the reality of it. And I also think Apple does not want to own the like customer relationship here. in a really important way. Like you bought an LG camera, too bad it sucks. Is like a great hedge for Apple. And the whole point of this ecosystem, I keep saying, is they're going to need a massive ecosystem to support everyone's house. There's someone in the chat who said I'm just making up exaggerated edge cases and I'm just going to defer to Jen and and have her back me up. Everyone's house is crazy and this is the thing that kills everyone's smart home dreams >> is you cannot sell it as a product. you have to stand up integrators who come to your house and like design a system for you, >> right? And that's I mean that speaks to the the whole ADT partnership too is like yeah the idea here is that they're going to come and install this stuff for you because I remember when we were talking a while back about what all these rumors is like is Apple really going to make a video doorbell. Are they going to have systems to help you install wiring into your home? And that doesn't seem like an Apple thing to do. Um and it isn't. So yeah. And Google did this too. They partnered with was it on tech with their devices before the ADT partnership to get these into people's homes. Um because yeah, most people even though installing a smart lock actually isn't that hard. Neither is installing a smart video doorbell. Most people just either aren't don't want to consider it or are over are put off by the prospect. And having someone else do it for you makes a lot of sense. But the packaging of the smart home, I think, is one of the concerns I have about this. It's like a smart home in a box, to your point, neiarily works because it just these things don't fit into your home. And like who needs three, four security cameras from LG. Actually, I would rather have some door window sensors or um a a flood or a leak sensor, which is what we may end up seeing from the Schneider partnership. I did ask Apple if there was any more coming from these partnerships and they obviously didn't. >> Well, they don't need them. This is I think one of the weirder things about this is HomeKit supports Matter just fine. >> Right. So, sensors in my house. They're in HomeKit through Matter just fine. >> And then the list of devices here, I'm curious for your take on the prices, right? It's LG is making a $200 indoor camera that automatically tilts down to provide privacy when you return home. Cool. a $300 outdoor security camera with optional flood lights that raise the price to $400. $250 video doorbell. >> Yep. >> And it's HomeKit secure video, which you have to buy some complicated additional iCloud plan to get like cloud recording operating on it. All of that is more expensive than anything else. And that's not even including a $40 temperature sensor and a $200 thermostat and a $350 smart deadbolt lock. Like every one of these is vastly more expensive than you could find in lock system. >> I will say they look very cool. >> The smart lock is sort of on par because of the UWB, but yeah, the rest the rest of them are high-end. They're not out of the park expensive, but they're definitely high-end. Most of especially around video doorbells and security cameras prices have been coming way down over the years. Um Ring >> because they're all subsidized by subscriptions >> much. Yeah, a lot of well and to your point right the basic HomeKit secure video subscription is relatively inexpensive. You can get it with the sort of 50 gigabyte iCloud plan, but if you want the new Apple intelligence features, you're going to be paying a lot more money. In fact, I think the highest tier is $60 a month and that covers five HomeKit secure video cameras, which there's a subscription money to be had in the smart home. This is probably really why Apple is moving, >> right? But just to put this in the context of Ring. I know there's lots and lots of other brands out there and and the market is actually staggeringly competitive for for cameras like this because they are cheap to make, right? I mean, we're just talking about the smartphone supply chain. >> Yeah. Like if you want to buy a 5-year-old camera sensor and stick it on the wall with a Wi-Fi chip, like you can just get those. And that is a lot of what has enabled the smart home market. But one of our Ring cameras just died. And I was like, I should buy a new one. And then I thought to myself, I will wait until any holiday or Prime Day when Amazon will just give me one for free because I'm a subscriber, right? And that is just the reality of that market. That is a subscription. They know it's going to pay off over time and Apple is not competitive with that. Now, you can have a lot of feelings about Ring. You can have a lot of feelings about, I don't know, the security and police and that whole model, but Apple is going to charge you money for a subscription, and that subscription is not going to subsidize one of these devices at all. And I think a lot of people just look at the dollars and cents. Like, straightforwardly look at the dollars and cents. >> Yeah. But also, there there is something to what we were talking about earlier that there is there is a power just in being the products that Apple has decided to bless. And and my question for you in this case, Jen, is looking at this list of products, did Apple go out and work with these companies to make like the best smart home stuff that exists or is this just overpriced versions of things that already exist that Apple is going to sell in the Apple store and make a lot of money off of because we have seen Apple do both of those things in the past. >> Yeah. So, I would say this is a list of the most popular smart home devices that people use. They're the ones that have the sort of single point solutions. So, you know, you want to know if you have a package, you want to be able to get into your house. Um, the flood light camera is actually my recommendation if you're going if you want a smart security camera. They're one of the best solutions for one because you have the lights and the motion activated light is a nice safety feature like just walking around your house, not not security wise. But yeah, these are the most popular devices. Thermostats as well. But I think in terms of the best products, um, what the what the selling point here isn't that they've done anything special and created new products that no one else has. It's that Apple integration. It's the setup I mentioned earlier where you just tap. You can just tap these devices and they will pair like a home like a like your AirPods. So the idea is to be a lot simpler and whilst the design was based >> David's face >> Nei say matter say matter say matter fixes this you just have to scan a QR code >> yes that's true except for but one but the advantage here of the Apple integration specifically to your point about LG sending your video off to China is that all of the devices work with Apple devices in your home. They do not use any LG servers. They do not use an LG app. It's all going through your Apple devices, your home hub, um your home view, your Apple TV, um potentially through your phone. It's all controlled by you. So that's the security and privacy angle is the big one. And that's why HomeKit video has always sort of had an edge and the matter standard for cameras hasn't really filled that gap yet because someone needs to take it and run with it and no one really has. Um, but it that's what Apple's selling here is that these are products that we guarantee the security and privacy of and you don't have to worry about downloading apps. You can't do that with any other security camera yet because they don't work with matter. Other devices do work with matter. So yes, you you don't. >> But I'm just saying the reason for that, the ice cold business reason for that is cameras are the device where you can charge a subscription fee for storage and AI recognition and security services. Yes. >> So there's no way they're going to anyone has any incentive to make matter cameras >> because then you can decouple them from the subscription service. And you can see Apple is doing almost exactly the same thing here. >> Yeah, they did say, you know, we're fully invested in matter and we're interested in and working on the Mattera Smartome camera standard. In fact, the lead of the matter camera standard is an Apple engineer. Um, so they are fully involved in that. But yeah, at this this point they said we're still sticking with HomeKit secure video. So um but you can you can you could use a platform could use matter and still add a subscription layer on top. It doesn't negate the the ability to put a subscription layer on top if you add additional features like the AI text descriptions which is that's what you have to pay $60 a month for if if you want that on five cameras with HomeKit. So yeah, there there's you they could use matter as the infrastructure and then add their services on top. Um which I think is they may get to eventually, but they did just completely rearchitect and a whole new spec for HomeKit secure video came out at WWDC this year. So um there sort of yeah they that would have been the moment to go to matter. >> I would just say all of this is it's made so much easier if you have AI around, right? The whole point of this is that Siri is good now and it can do world knowledge. You can ask it any question you want. And that is all right next to a bunch of Apple's competitors are launching things that look like agents. And how many times have we covered, you know, someone built a dashboard in cloud code that can run their home assistant? Like this is a thing that exists in the world today. And all of these devices and all this configuration and all the automation that makes having this stuff really valuable is nowhere in this product. >> Yeah. >> Right. Like why do you have a temperature sensor? To to do stuff when it detects temperature changes, not just to look at it like being like I wonder what temperature it is in the basement is not of enormous value. >> So I think I'm hoping we'll see more. So, Apple did launch the adaptive temperature feature and they didn't I did not get confirmation. I haven't read the PR yet. Um, but I didn't get confirmation whether I'm assuming these two thermostats will work with adaptive temperature because very few smart thermostats that have come out to date work with that. And that is using some type of um it's geoloccation predominantly. But I can I'm hoping you'll kind of see that next level when they start to bring these sensors together with AI and bring that home context in to play to to start doing some of the more proactive things that the smart home could do because the adaptive temperature now it will like it it adjusts based on how far away you are from home so that your home will be you know this is what Nests did for years too but Apple has it baked in to the OS system so that you don't have to buy a specific thermostat. You just have to It just has to be you don't have to buy a specific brand like Nest as long as it's compatible with Apple Home and supports Apple Home adaptive temperature. Um, which and these sensors, but would feed into you can have these all around your house. So, kind of get that EcoB experience, which is what EcoB sold itself on for many years where you know it can adapt adjust in different parts of your home. But that's all quite complicated to set up and to manage. >> It's complicated for you to just say. >> Yeah. Like I love this stuff and I'm just like I there's this is what I I I'm just going to keep coming back to this. The idea that they can ignore what exists and why it all exists as complicated as it is. Yes. And just be like buy these cameras. It's all going to work great is gonna it it just my guess is that's why David you called it out is like wonder what they think this is. >> Yes. >> Right. There's like an inbuilt inherent confusion here because you can't not gesture at all these weird edge cases. >> Yes. And I think it's so funny to me the way Apple's approaching this because the bet here clearly is that people will start by buying a home view. That your first smart home gadget for a lot of people will be a home view and then that will be the the sun around which everything else rotates. And that is so the opposite of the dream of the smart home, which is that there are a million entry points and the controller doesn't really matter because all of the controllers all work >> because the logic lives on a server in your basement, >> right? You just buy all the things that you need and they all figure out how to work together. And uh I I I would say I have been bearish on matters ability to pull any of this off. I think >> listen, history history continues to prove me a little more right every single day. Uh and it makes me sad every single time. But but I do think Apple is looking at this to say the main thing you're going to want is this main device and and this is like a a generation old idea, right? Like go all the way back to the original Amazon Echo and there was this >> Do we know what processor this thing has in it? Do we know do we know any of its specs? Does it have RAM? I mean obviously >> the A18 is the chip. Um so the Apple TV has the A19, but the A18 is what powers the the Siri. Apple TV has more processing power than the >> Yeah, >> it's plenty of process. Both of them are going to be vastly overpowered for what you need on these devices. >> I'm just curious why you would make that choice. Uh >> price. >> Sure. >> This thing is cheaper than the Apple TV. What are we doing here? >> They're the same price, aren't they? >> Oh, you're right. They're the same price. >> Same price. >> Very confusing all the way around. >> Yeah, I I know. I was surprised. I was like, yeah, I was actually thinking this was going to be >> the Apple TV is a game console, you guys. Come on. get it through your heads. Uh I don't think the this isn't the computer like this is the other big smartome philosophical swirl is where does the computer live in your house? So if you want to have a bunch of automations or you just want everything to connect to something, you have to make some choices. And I would, you know, these are abstractions, but like in the Google ecosystem kind of everything like lives in the cloud like in the way like in a very googly way. That's true somewhat of Alexa as well, although those devices are Jen's just I'm just looking at Jen to see if I'm getting this right. This is very much like taking a test. >> Both have some local control, but the majority is through the cloud, >> right? All the logic and all the automations live in the cloud. The Apple ecosystem is the most confusing ecosystem of them all. Like sometimes if your Apple home breaks, the way to fix it is by restarting your house, >> your iPhone, >> and I don't know why. And this device carries it through. They haven't been like, "Okay, this thing is in your house. It's a computer. It's going to run all the >> it would have more." I asked I was like, "Is does it do something special as a home hub or is it just like all the others?" And >> and if you leave your house with your phone or you don't have a phone running iOS 27, this thing has different capabilities which is bananas. >> Yeah. But Apple doesn't acknowledge the existence of people who don't have iPhones running the latest version of iOS, which is fine. >> But but what I'm saying is like if again the question is like where is the computer? >> I think this is the computer. I think I think >> No, no, no. The computer is still your phone. >> No, it's it sure like No, Neil, I love you, but no one actually cares where the computer is. People care where they get to the computer. >> Trust me, the second your Apple Home breaks, you'll be like, "Just show me the computer cuz I need to unplug it and plug it back in." Sure. >> And then you will find yourself like restarting your Apple Watch while like hopping up and down in one foot and like logging out of iCloud. You're like, "Just show me the computer." >> Sure. I I all of that is true, but I think I think Apple looks at this and says this for a lot of people in their home is the computer. It's it is the central device that will manage everything. And and how all of that works is abstract by design. No. Yeah, it's abstract, but it's also you you you are very confidently answering a different question, which is where does HomeKit live? That's the question I'm asking. >> What is the device on which HomeKit operates? And in Apple's case, it's all of them at once. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Which is in the context of this being the first smart home device that you buy is just again I have a million questions about how that will work for regular people. I >> technically that's an insane proposition. I agree with you. Yeah. >> Practically speaking, the prop. Uh >> oh, we've lost David. They finally killed David. Everybody, I was very curious what he was going to say, but I don't think I think I'm I'm still right. >> I know. I so well I wrote a whole piece about this saying I wanted um Apple to launch like a home hub that was also a router that's also a local AI processing that does everything like that is your computer that runs your smart home. We saw these at EPHA this year. There were two companies Yui and UG launched these kind of whole home computer NAS device storage systems for your home that run local AI. But that's that's definitely, you know, that's the MacBook that's the Mac Pro trash can level of smart home, not not the HomePad home view level of smart home. >> I mean, we I'm we have people who have just full-on homes in our comments here, right? Like it's like there is there's a big spectrum in the market. >> This isn't for you and that's okay. >> I mean, this is the thing. So, I'm glad that it's not. I just want to say philosophically this is one of the things about this device that is the most interesting and and like you said for a company like Apple that only makes things that are ostensibly for everybody the Vision Pro threw people off because it was for nobody. Uh and this is very much not for everybody. And I I think I think and one of the things that I I believe in my heart is that this device would have made a hell of a lot more sense to a hell of a lot more people three years ago which is probably when Apple >> when they were supposed to launch it. Siri AI screwed the home view because Siri AI wasn't any good when it was supposed to come out and then it came out and it is too late and they have missed a lot of the people for whom this would have made sense could have been the beginning of the smart home journey like would have brought a lot of people in and instead >> those people bought yes we just let chaos reign for two more years people built weird things and this does not slide into >> clear Jen just wrote a piece about living with Alexa plus for one year and it's not like they solved it it's not like there's a whole like the market is done. Like it's still pretty bad all around. >> The market is done in the sense that people are people that are in it are fed up with it and people that aren't in it are like why would I get involved in that? It looks really >> if if you're not already a person with a smart home device. >> Do you want a smart home device is such an open question. >> I keep telling when I talk I was just at the Z-Wave summit a couple weeks ago um and I I was talking >> my got the hard eyes This is why we made the verge. We That's where you go to enjoy entertainment. >> Is was it is the building the shape of a Z? Just answer. >> They don't have a building anymore. S. >> Oh my goodness. >> Since Silicon L labs sold them. But yes. Um I was at the V Z-Wave Summit and I was talking to I did a little presentation about like what people want from the smart home and I was like we we the problem today is that we are not a manufacturers are not able to explain the benefits of the smart home. We need to tell the stories of the smart home. This is what I do try and do in my reviews is like how does this help me in my daily life? How does this work in my home? How does it help with my kids? you know, too many things are about protocols and and plugs and and hubs and and there's not enough about like this is what you can actually do. I think most people come to the smart home from a single point solution. They have something they need to fix. They fix it with a device, a garage door controller, a video doorbell, a smart door lock, and then they start to see, oh, this is kind of neat. Maybe I can try something else. But when that first experience is bad, that's where things start to fall apart. And this is this is Apple's angle here, I think, is we're going to make that first experience good, hopefully, and then you'll buy more things. >> Yep. Agreed. All right, we are we're getting kicked out of Well, Jen is getting kicked out of the studio in 15 minutes. And we still need to listen to Neil and I try to convince us all to buy $300 Apple TVs. But before that, you like the old one. >> They didn't even like make you this pencil. >> We're going to take one more really quick break and then we're going to come back. We're going to finish up. Be right back. Support for the show comes from Framer. The future of website building is seamlessly blending all the tools we have available. And you could use a platform that has it all and stays useful even after you launch. That's what Framer is. Framer is the AI website builder that helps creators, teams, and businesses ship production ready sites faster than ever while getting every detail right. You're able to prompt, inspect, edit, and publish in one place at a whole new pace. On Framer, agents bring speed and scale, while people bring taste, judgment, and control. And that all takes place in the same workspace where the real site is designed, managed, reviewed, and published. Everyone's ideas land on the canvas, stay editable, and can be published when the team is ready. 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And when it comes to the operational stuff, such as contracts and payments, Upwork takes care of it all. With over 170,000 freelancers holding five-star ratings, you can hire with confidence knowing you're getting someone with a verified track record of applied expertise. Visit upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's u pw.com. upwork.com. Neil Patel, it's your time to shine, baby. $299 Apple TV 4K. First update in four years. >> They added Siri AI. They did it. Look, all I'm going to say is that RAM's expensive. >> Yes, >> RAM's expensive. We live in a time and people have these for 10 years. I I think I legitimately have an Apple TV that is like eight years old. >> Yes. And it was the last one. So, the the two features basically are there there's some interesting surround sound stuff. Uh but the big one is you can there they're there are farfield microphones, right? So you can talk to Siri AI without using the microphone. Uh you can also I think ping them ping the remote now directly to be able to find it. Um >> and it uses Bluetooth channel sounding which is kind of neat. >> Sure. Uh Chen, what do you make of this? You've heard about it. I most of the time >> uh our commenters I think like nice things. In this case, the overwhelming reaction has been, "Why on earth is this $299 and why would anyone buy it?" Do do you have a reasonable case for it against that argument? >> Why is it $299? Um, I think they Well, the Farfield microphones. >> I mean, they've added more hardware into this. Um, I think the Farfield microphones is a good move. Um, because this is essentially a HomePod mini in your living room now. Um although you can also pair now that's one of the other features is you can pair up to four HomePods for surround sound. Um but I think having being able to talk directly to the TV is is it probably the best new feature here along with being able to find your remote. >> Um but it I was surprised when they sent over the pricing and I was like whoa this is $50 more than the top level one now which has all the same features um except for the farfield microphones and also and the Siri AI. So, it does have the faster processor. So, this is it's kind of like buying the advice that we give when you buy a computer, right? Buy the most expensive one you can afford because it'll last the longest. And this has the A19 chip. It has the 128 gig of RAM. Um, it has the extra features. >> And it has Wi-Fi 7 and Bluetooth 6.0. So, it's like the top of it's specked out. It's fully specked for what? >> Yes. For what? Like, you know, my my Apple TV lives in a rack in a closet plugged into Ethernet. I don't need any of that stuff. >> Yeah. >> Like, not a little bit of it. >> Neil, we did get a comment that that said in all caps, ask Neili about HDMI pass through on this thing. >> I need HDMI pass through. >> Yes, you can plug your cable box directly into the Apple TV. Recapitulating the doomed Xbox strategy in 2014. >> Oh my god. But like I the I think the the real answer here is that Apple knows that most people don't even buy these anymore, right? They use whatever software is on their TVs that is undoubtedly spying on them with ACR. Uh and then when their TV software gets slow, they go and buy a $39 Roku stick, which is also spying on them. And that is where they deliver Apple TV, the service, not the platform. And that is fine. I like Apple doesn't want to be in this business. And there's some set of people that will just pay the money, whatever amount of money that is for this device, and they'll have it for a long time. >> So, it's the Mac Pro is what you're saying. >> No, it's not the Mac Pro. It's more like if you're an expensive Apple customer, you there's just price elasticity. You're like, I'll never buy a Roku. And then you're like, well, I don't care. Like, oh no, some dloons fell out of my pocket. I guess I bought an Apple TV. I think they're in the part of the market with this where they have no intention of being mass market and like Greg Jazwak is offended by the idea of having a Google TV. >> So this exists. >> Do you know what I mean? I can I just add one thing to that theory? I think most of that is right. also think it is true that deep inside of Apple Park they believe that they are good at gaming and that just just around the corner Apple is going to be a great gaming console and the Apple TV is going to suddenly >> turns from the whole point of Apple doing AI being decompiling PC games and running them on M series processors like >> No Man's Sky is coming to iPad in like two weeks. It's going to change everything. >> It's right there. They're like, "Finally, we've cracked PC gaming by doing the bleeding edge of copyright infringement." Like, whatever that is, it's fine. But yeah, I some part of them believes that this is a game console, and that's fine. But I think they just need to have this device. And for the numbers of Apple TVs they sell, it does not matter how much they cost. >> Okay. >> But people who buy them do not care about money is the >> I just want to shout out the comment that just came in suggesting that GTA 6 is coming to Apple. Can you imagine if like next week they're like and it runs n like the world would explode even best $300 purchase effort. >> Uh Toad Guy, my my boy Toad Guy in the chat uh says he bought three Apple TVs and the most he spent was a buck 39 on sale. >> Uh yeah, sure. But that's when they had like two or three of them, right? There used to be a cheap one and an expensive one. Remember he could buy one with like additional storage >> just for the hell of it. Just like why? like I need I need a terabyte of storage my Apple TV >> and they're all gone. This is the only one you can >> this is the only one and that's I'm saying I think they have recognized the reality of the TV market in the way that I think the home view is disconnected from the reality of smart homes. I think the Apple TV is like right in the pocket of TVs. >> Well, and it is also the for the smart home nerds is the ideal Apple home hub because it has the Ethernet. It's the only way. And that and most Apple Home users, super users have an Apple TV because of the being able to have that consistent hardwired connection. And Apple Home has this feature that selects your hub for you. And it will often not select the Apple TV with with uh Ethernet. And people got so mad that they changed it so that you could go in and manually select. >> It took like five years. >> It took a while. >> By the way, this is a a total like niche feature of Apple Home, but like when it was announced, people celebrated. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm going to pick a default home hub for my head. >> I can finally I can finally choose my Apple TV. >> I think my frustration with this one is just that there there are basically only two good streaming boxes and it's the Nvidia Shield which Nvidia doesn't care about in any way, shape, or form. And there's the Apple TV, which Apple clearly doesn't care about in any way, shape, or form. And it it is so obvious that if somebody was just actually interested in building a good product at a competitive price, it would probably work. And no one is willing to take a run at it. >> You can't because the Roku model, we'll just use Roku, but this is the model for Amazon. It's the model for Google. They they have done the Apple app model at scale on televisions. So, if you buy a Roku, you can get a Roku for $39. Amazon will just like fire a Fire TV Stick at you if you blink at Prime. They're not they're obviously not making any money on the hardware. They to every app on those devices, they say, "If you run ads, if you have any advertising in your app, we get 30%." >> Mhm. >> And it all has to come through our servers and we have to see it. We're going to track it into all the data. And so they're just sitting back and being like, "We gave away free cable boxes and we are collecting fees on the advertising that runs on those cable boxes." And Apple won't do that. That it's like too grimy for Apple. I think if they could do it, they would in the sense that they love taking fees. Yeah, I don't think it's I don't think anything is too grimy for Apple at this point. >> That like that connected TV advertising market is like very grimy. Like you can't imagine any Apple employees like being at those conferences. Like it's not it's not acceptable to them. And so I think they're fine. They're like fine. Like LG is going to do data collection and Vizio is going to continue to just relentlessly exist and sell 100inch LCD TVs that don't look bad for $5. And everyone's like, man, TVs are cheap. Like that's all fine. And then if you want to pay for privacy and Apple's conception of privacy, you can pay $300 for this Apple TV. And there's no there's no business model under it except you subscribe to channels somewhere, >> right? And where else are you going to go? It's there there there just are not a lot of games in this particular town. Um before we go, let's talk about the HomePod for just a second. Um, I think this is actually a much more exciting upgrade with >> a lot of people shout out the NVIDIA shield in our chat and I just want to tell you I I love you. Nvidia doesn't care about you. >> I'm not sure Nvidia is aware that it stands. They have they are literally frying bigger fish. >> And in fact, I I wrote uh let's see, it was four years ago now that uh the fact that the Nvidia Shield is still one of the best set top boxes on the market is a truly damning fact about the state of the set top box market. and it is ever more true now. Um, but let's talk about the HomePod Mini for just a second because I think the >> Wait, wait, wait. The Shield was discontinued uh 10 days ago, but the Shield Pro lives on with a 50% price hike. >> Great job, everybody. Uh, the HomePod Mini 2 uh $149. Price went up a little bit. Price went up on everything. It's It's not a cheap little speaker. Um, two new things basically. One is Sound Glow, which syncs it to album art, which I don't care about at all. Um, much more exciting is the fact you can actually much more successfully put this into your Apple ecosystem. Now, like Jen, you mentioned, you can now pair it with the new Apple TV and do surround sound. That way, you can make it your Mac default speaker. Um, >> other than the fact that this thing has to be plugged in, which I think it still has to be plugged in, right? >> Yes. >> Other than that, this is very close to being the thing we've always wanted the HomePod Mini to be, >> but it does not have Siri AI. This is >> Oh, no. >> So, it has the fastest. Yes. I mean, it's been six years since they did a proper refresh. And this this was limping along on an S5 chip, um, which is an Apple Watch chip from like, I don't know, last decade. I mean, um, and this this now has the S10. Um, they didn't do much more on the sort of hardware front. It's very much still the same speaker. Um, but the S10 is supposed to power Siri AI, but it's not launching with it. Um, it's coming in a later software update. And actually, Siri AI on the Apple TV is in beta. So, this Siri AI is finally ready for the smart hometick seems to be actually maybe a little paper thin because just like we've seen with all the other platforms as they've rolled out their AI powered assistants, um, they hit some bumps in the road. Um, but in terms of the device, like what you might want to upgrade for to get this if your Siri AI is not on your road map, um, I think being able to work as speakers for your, um, Mac is great and actually stick because you've always been able to like AirPlay, but they've they've said they've sort of underlying they've done an underlying audio architecture revamp to make this really late latency free and you compare two side by side and they color match with your iMac. back if you're if you have a colorful island. >> Yeah. Just the fact that they can just they can act like like speakers. You don't have to point to them as a destination. They can just be your computer speakers. Yeah. >> Is a a meaningful thing. They're still expensive. I wish they had gotten more of a sound upgrade. Uh Neil, are you a HomePod guy? >> No. No. No. >> What's your What's your little speaker of choice? >> Do we We don't We have speakers in the We have fancy clip speakers in the ceiling all through this house. >> What am I saying? >> Schneider Electric is in there doing something. >> We have Schneider Electric devices in this house. uh little speaker of choice. We have um we have old Sonos 1 SLS that don't have microphones. >> So, no smart speakers, just smart displays. >> We have one Sonus one uh that it still has Google Assistant because we're a Google family. And we're only a Google family because of the existence of Google Photos, which looks really good on the home hub, >> right? And you start there and you kind of move through the rest of it. But our the Sonus ones, we don't we didn't even upgrade to the Aero 300s. Like those sound great. I have one that's been mounted outside on the back patio. These are not technically waterproof. It's just been outside for three years and it's fine. >> Okay, we we need to go. But here here is my demand of both of you before we go. >> Yeah. when when you guys get your home views, I I just want I want to be there for the unboxing and the like incredible existential crisis it causes both of you of am I going to literally rip things out of the walls of my house to support this device or am I just going to accept that the home view is not for me and move on to >> a lot of people are going to buy this device and then very quickly buy a Raspberry Pi to run homebridge. I guarantee you that will be the next thing that happens as a lot of people are going to under figure out very quickly that you can actually bridge everything into HomeKit if you're willing to do one more turn of integration and all of those companies that make the commercialized Homebridge installs. There's one called Hoobs, which is Joanna Stern's favorite. I'm just going to throw that out there. She laughs every time I say it. Um uh there this the explosion of popularity because you're going to want to bring everything into this screen. Yeah, >> I already have holes in my walls where I have >> I have one that I made for an iPad mini. >> But the annoying thing about this is it's going to be too small. I'm still going to have I'm going to have to do some filler around the sides. >> Yeah. >> So, it will be going in my wall and on my counter. I'd like to try I'd like to try both because I I do feel like there's two two different use cases there. It's like the Echo Hub is their wall-mounted version and then you have the the tabletop device which becomes more of a um enjoyment entertainment enjoyment experience. >> We had a very old I feel very dumb right now because we had a very old Well, if you get really into smart home, you also get pretty good at drywall. This is like the these things go together. Um we had a very old intercom system that I ripped out and I patched, but it was wired with Ethernet and the drop goes to the basement. Oh, >> and I should, >> this is what I'm saying. 19-hour Vergecast of just Eli pacing around his house trying to figure out what's >> You know what? I didn't live stream, and I should have, and I think it would have put me I would have been like a very rich Twitch streamer if I had live streamed this. When we moved into this house, I ran around with an Ethernet toner finding all the all the drops for the because we rewired the Yep. >> That's Apple's target market. >> All of the landlines all of the landlines in this house were were wired with RJ6. So, we just did that. >> That's good. All right, we need to get out of here. That is it for this episode of Smart Home Sickos, uh, a podcast within a podcast of the Vergecast, which just continues to spawn new weird shows. Uh, thank you to both of you for being here. Um, I should say all of these products are coming out kind of over the course of the next month, so we'll have lots more to say about all of it. We're going to get one of these into Jen's house and she's going to break everything with it and I'm very excited to hear all about it. Thank you both for being here. Thank you to Travis and our whole team for producing. Thank you to all of you for being here, hanging out with us. It's been incredibly fun. We will see you next time.